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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 15-04-2020
Antonio Wrote:And what does it mean that some may not be plants? You leave me speechless. Thinking that there is no guarantee that there is a relationship between script and drawings is a challenge to common sense
Antonio, I don't know how much you have looked at the plants, but they are not all drawn the same way.
Some are naturalistic and quite identifiable.
Some appear to have mnemonic parts.
Some appear to be stylized.
They don't all necessarily serve the same purpose. They might not even all be drawn by the same person. I would say there is strong evidence that there are two different painters. It's not just the way one slaps the colors on and the other is careful, it's also the way the colors are mixed. So, if there are several scribes, and at least two painters, then there might be more than one person who worked on the plants.
There are two sections, large plants and small plants, and these are drawn differently as well. They might be the same illustrator, but specific parts of the plants are included that differ from one section to the next, so these two sections (large plants and small plants) might not serve the same purpose either.
And, as Koen has suggested, they might not all be plants. Some of them might be allegorical concepts expressed in the shape of plants.
As for whether there is a relationship between script and plants assumes first of all that the text is meaningful. Second, it is, quite simply, a very big assumption. I hope they are related, but no one has proved that they are related.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 15-04-2020
-JKP- Wrote: These kinds of straddles, combined glyphs, and embellished scripts are found in Greek and Latin
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]
Antonio Wrote:[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] [/font]Decoratives scripts of course, but have you seen many big bridges between glyphs like those of the VM?[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]They are not only found in decorative scripts in the sense of calligraphy. They are also found in manuscripts on general subjects, and in legal documents. In fact, the gallows chars are more similar to Latin legal documents than other kinds of documents. The decorative superposition of glyphs is more common in Greek manuscripts.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]And yes, I have seen bridges between characters and across characters. These were professional scribes. They were paid to write. They were genuinely interested in scripts and well-trained in abbreviations and ligatures. They were talented and some of them were creative. The elements that we find in the VMS may not have been super common, but they are all represented in works of the time.[/font][/font]
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 15-04-2020
(15-04-2020, 10:24 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Maybe the inclined line is a coincidence. There are a number of Latin scripts that have inclined letters[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] Have you seen many Latin scripts with three inclined lines in a row? Is it a coincidence that those three lines are seen in the imagery of the VM, especially on the clock of the Rosettes folio?[/font]
In scripts that use Latin characters, I only see a pattern of three inclined lines where the overall script inclines backwards, and then one does see them as Roman numerals in manuscripts of the very early 15th century and the 14th century and earlier.
I have located a style of writing that specifically inclines backwards. Several of the letters incline, especially m, n, r, and i. I thought at first it might be left-handers, but I located so many of them from the same time period, it appears that someone was teaching people to write this way (maybe the tutor was a left-hander).
But the backleaning i glyphs in the VMS are not necessarily letters. They could be numbers (numerous researchers have noted the similarity to Roman numerals) or they could be symbols, but you are going to have to find more evidence to establish that they are specifically astronomical symbols.
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 15-04-2020
(15-04-2020, 10:24 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
...
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I would say that the rest of the glyphs maybe resemble known glyphs in shape but have another semantic value[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I want to clunk my head on the desk when people say this specifically to me. HOW MANY TIMES have I said that we have to maintain a distinction between the shapes and the meaning? Maybe 300 times here on the forum and in my blog? You are preaching to the choir.[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]YES, the shapes are not related to meaning. I KNOW THAT. I've probably emphasized it more than any other VMS researcher. I HAVE TO because I keep writing blogs about the origins of the shapes and then people "accuse" me of saying it's Latin.[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]NO, I AM NOT SAYING THE MEANING IS BASED ON THE ORIGIN OF THE SHAPES. I never have. It might be, or it might be something otherwise, but the shapes do NOT determine the content. What they demonstrate is the cultural exposure of whoever designed the text.[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]But you wrote this:[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]
Quote:[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] 6º The script of the book uses totally unknown glyphs...[/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]And that is not true. Most of the shapes are derived from Latin characters and possibly to a lesser extent from Greek. The VMS shapes are not rare or unknown. It's completely incorrect to characterize the VMS glyphs as "totally unknown glyphs". [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Only a small proportion fit into that category. Most of them are common. Not only are they common, but the ones that are shaped like Latin abbreviations are positioned in the same way in the VMS text as they are in Latin texts. This tells me the designer had some knowledge of or experience with Latin scribal conventions.[/font][/font][/font][/font]
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 15-04-2020
I see that we think differently. That's fine. That helps improve research
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 09-05-2020
I think the VM is a medicinal herbal made with astrological magic. It is my theory based simply on common sense. If I see a medieval book with images and a script never seen, the first thing I think is that its authors have imagined something they don't see either but what they believe in. They are not avant-garde artists. They are people who believe in the power of the stars.
They don't draw herbs they know, but the opposite, because they believe that the herbs must be somewhere in the world. In a hundred years of research, reputed botanists have been unable to identify even 10% of the plants, and that without full security. And most surprisingly, people more familiar with the natural world than us did not identify them in the 17th century either. And surely many learned people saw the VM then.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 17-05-2020
It is important to be aware that everything we see in the VM is closely related. The Rosettes seems to have nothing to do with plant images, but they are linked. In the central circle we see some strange objects that are difficult to identify. They look like containers or towers.They are actually censers that keep the fragrance of aromatic herbs.
It's not difficult to prove it. Look at this picture
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In the painting of Salomon and the queen of Saba by Konrad Witz, she offers the king a container that looks like some we see in the Rosettes. The queen controlled the incense route.
And look at this photographof an old perfume glass
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It looks like also what we see in the Rosettes folio
The Rosettes is a cosmological diagram that shows how stars give herbs their virtues, their fragrance. It is what we see represented distilling from one circle to another until reach the Earth
RE: No text, but a visual code - davidjackson - 17-05-2020
My concern is that you, jkp, sometimes don't quite make the difference clear between the semantic meaning of voynich glyphs and their design heritage. You can't assume that because, ie, one of them looks like a vowel it actually is a vowel. *
Antonio, lovely story about Salomón, didn't know that one. There are a number of mud 15th woodcuts with such bowl elements in them, usually spice holders. Here's one from circa 1435. Wing from the Mirror of Salvation altarliece from St. Leonhard, Basle. Tempera on wood. Kunstmuseum Basel, Basel, Switzerland.
The other wings also show similar items. However, the imagery suggests such things were reserved for the upper classes.
*
RE: No text, but a visual code - -JKP- - 17-05-2020
I have always insisted rather loudly that glyph origin (design heritage) and semantic value are two completely different issues.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Ruby Novacna - 18-05-2020
(14-04-2020, 12:07 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.6º The script of the book uses totally unknown glyphs
Quote:JKP : Only a few of the glyphs are unknown ([font=Eva]t, p,[/font] and their benched versions)In my opinion it's possible to find all the glyphs in the works that deal with Greek writing. I had quoted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a few years ago, and I’m adding here a link to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for glyph "t" EVA.