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+--- Thread: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout (/thread-2285.html)
Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - Koen G - 08-02-2018
Just on a whim I made the following image which shows the direction of the labels on the large foldout. The arrows always point to the top. So on a normal page (like this webpage) we would expect only upwards pointing arrows.
"Radial" labels, which are arranged as or along a circle, are marked in black.
Taking the orientation of the scan as the norm:
GREEN arrows mark normal text.
RED arrows mark upside down text.
YELLOW arrows mark text which can be read when you turn the map 90° counter-clockwise
BLUE arrows mark text which can be read when you turn the map 90° clockwise
PINK arrows mark transitional directions.
What this diagram shows is that there appears to be a clockwise "flow" throughout the foldout which is followed rather consistently. I'm not sure what this means and I'm left with plenty of qiestions.
Does it show that the thing was meant to be rotated in one's hand?
Does it show the preferred orientation of specific parts?
Are there other documents which show this kind of behavior? (there are a few other pages in the VM)
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - -JKP- - 08-02-2018
The little lines that resemble "starting points" in the various rota on other folios generally start at about the same spot and go clockwise (at least, the text is added in an apparently clockwise direction).
![[Image: StartMarkersVMS.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/StartMarkersVMS.png)
So, the direction of the rota on various folios, appears to be similar to the overall "direction" of the "map" as you've marked it, but interestingly, the starting points on individual rota on this folio vary more than anywhere else in the manuscript (I've marked them in red). Most of the other folios start around 10:00 o'clock.
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There is also the "internal" content direction, e.g., the "flows" from the center rosette to three outer ones (marked in green), and all sorts of other "flows" that seem a little more literal, like the one on the top right near the T-O shape that looks like a river flowing from a source to a river-delta. In fact, there are so many "flows" in this folio (both in terms of the drawing construction and of the drawing content) it will probably take several pages to map all the different categories.
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In terms of the general direction of the construction, you've brought up an interesting topic that will probably be discussed for quite some time.
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - Koen G - 08-02-2018
A very good point about the 10 o'clock. This seems to indicate that we are looking at the top left and middle left circle in the best way, since there both the mark and the labels are positioned as expected.
Either way, another argument for intended rotation.
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - -JKP- - 09-02-2018
Another note about direction is that the drawing that resembles a T-O map orients the labels so that what was traditionally read as Africa is at the top (in contrast to Isidore of Seville's mappa mundi, and those of many others in the Middle Ages who put Asia at the top)
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - MarcoP - 09-02-2018
(08-02-2018, 01:51 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are there other documents which show this kind of behavior? (there are a few other pages in the VM)
I would say that this XV Century alchemical diagram shows the same kind of behaviour. Of course, it is not nearly as complex as the Rosettes fold-out.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - Koen G - 09-02-2018
It's an interesting comparison, Marco, but in my opinion there is a fundamental difference. The diagram you show has a dominant/default orientation. This is not only caused by the text written in the margins, but also by the diagram itself. Look at the text in the middle and the red labels just outside.
In contrast, the text of the rosettes foldout does not appear to have a default orientation at all. The same is true for this diagram on the reverse of the foldout:
In fact, the only way you could tell which way is up is by the sun's face.
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - MarcoP - 09-02-2018
(09-02-2018, 05:55 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's an interesting comparison, Marco, but in my opinion there is a fundamental difference. The diagram you show has a dominant/default orientation. This is not only caused by the text written in the margins, but also by the diagram itself. Look at the text in the middle and the red labels just outside.
In contrast, the text of the rosettes foldout does not appear to have a default orientation at all. The same is true for this diagram on the reverse of the foldout:
In fact, the only way you could tell which way is up is by the sun's face.
This clarifies what you are after.
Maybe this wind diagram from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.?
As a parallel for the Rosettes, a similar complexity appears in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (an author discussed by Mary D'Imperio).
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - VViews - 09-02-2018
Very interesting observation Koen Gh, and thanks for starting the thread.
The diagram mentioned by MarcoP in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also comes to mind as a text that seems to suggest turning in a clockwise motion.
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - Koen G - 09-02-2018
Marco, the wind diagram is a very attractive parallel for the positioning of the text.
RE: Direction of labels on rosettes foldout - -JKP- - 09-02-2018
The "start" markers do not represent all the main points of a compass, a couple are duplicated, so if they are crucial to understanding the arrangement of things, it's not a simple matter of just rearranging them or rotating them.
I tried rotating them to put them all in the same 10:00 o'clock position just to see what happens but... then I realized that doesn't work unless you know which wheel is the primary-orientation wheel. One can't just arbitrarily choose top-left, for example, and then rotate them all so the start markers match because their relationship to each other is different if you use the middle one as the start marker instead.
It's a lot of different possibilities, and it was late, so I didn't follow through (and unfortunately can't during the workday either).
But... it's something to think about....
Have the wheels been rotated? Are they supposed to line up? The "flows" out of the middle wheel (#5) are symmetric, and flow to all four surrounding, which means rotating that wheel doesn't change the overall orientation of the firehose-like "sprays", but it changes other things.
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If this is a map, it's very difficult to know the scale. Are the rota furlongs apart or many kilometers apart? Imagine if this were a journey from Naples to Rome, compared to a journey from the east part of Venice to the west part of Florence, or from Constance or Graz to Venice or Milano... would that have anything to do with the positions or rotation of the markers?
It's tempting to think of the orientation of the start markers as marks on a sundial, denoting a certain time of day, since a couple of them are very close to the same point, but if it were a long journey, the distance would seem to be more important than the time of day. If they are compass points, then duplication would not be unusual, since journeys often include going in the same direction from different start points.