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+--- Thread: Plant Id. (/thread-2125.html)
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RE: Plant Id. - -JKP- - 02-10-2017
(01-10-2017, 10:37 PM)Dispator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....F8r looks like an obvious Hedera to me. it climbs from the bottom to the top of the page+the amount of text on that page suggest Hedera cause of its long history of use and worship.
Here are some of my IDs for plant 8r (these were done a long time ago, but my opinions on it haven't changed). I don't think it's obvious that the VMS leaf is Hedera, if you consider all these other possibilities:
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Here is my opinion on the most likely candidate for Hedera (it might not be, it could also be Bryonia, which retains its berries after the leaves are gone, but it's quite possibly Hedera). I posted this in July 2013 and it generated some discussion on the ninja forum more than a year ago:
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I couldn't find the original thread, but here is one of the follow-up threads on the oak and ivy theme:
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RE: Plant Id. - MarcoP - 02-10-2017
Hi Dispator, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as Napellus has also been mentioned You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
I think comparisons with late medieval herbals are always interesting. I attach a few examples of Napellum / Napelo.
RE: Plant Id. - Dispator - 02-10-2017
(02-10-2017, 03:07 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I read the links and the blog you posted, and i have to say i disagree. If You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks like aconitum to you then we have a considerable difference in perception of the images presented, which is good.(01-10-2017, 10:37 PM)Dispator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....F8r looks like an obvious Hedera to me. it climbs from the bottom to the top of the page+the amount of text on that page suggest Hedera cause of its long history of use and worship.
Here are some of my IDs for plant 8r (these were done a long time ago, but my opinions on it haven't changed). I don't think it's obvious that the VMS leaf is Hedera, if you consider all these other possibilities:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Here is my opinion on the most likely candidate for Hedera (it might not be, it could also be Bryonia, which retains its berries after the leaves are gone, but it's quite possibly Hedera). I posted this in July 2013 and it generated some discussion on the ninja forum more than a year ago:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I couldn't find the original thread, but here is one of the follow-up threads on the oak and ivy theme:
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![[Image: 440px-Aconitum.bock-a.jpg]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Aconitum.bock-a.jpg/440px-Aconitum.bock-a.jpg)
Aconite roots
![[Image: aconite-is-a-poisonous-substance-from-th...crm3re.jpg]](http://l450v.alamy.com/450v/crm3re/aconite-is-a-poisonous-substance-from-the-dried-tuberous-root-of-aconitum-crm3re.jpg)
About Hedera none of your examples depict the leaf on the page of the manuscript which is the focal point for obvious reason of its importance, also about the bulb you should find an older hedera branch and check it out.
RE: Plant Id. - -JKP- - 02-10-2017
That Vermont herbal never ceases to surprise me. It definitely has its own way of doing things.
RE: Plant Id. - -JKP- - 02-10-2017
"I read the links and the blog you posted, and i have to say i disagree. If You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks like aconitum to you then we have a considerable difference in perception of the images presented, which is good."
I did NOT say You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks like Aconitum to me. I know what Aconitum looks like. I can also draw a dead-accurate picture of one.
I said that if the VMS illustrator were drawing Aconitum, it is more likely to be drawn like f93r, upright, with a flower spike, quite possibly showing seeds without the pod, etc.
This is based on studying ALL the plants in the VMS to learn exactly how the illustrator chose to represent things. There are many discernible patterns in the way plants are drawn and certain symbolic consistencies also.
It's not about what I think the plant looks like. It's about how he or she thought the plants looked and what the illustrator chose to focus on, and what was chosen to be represented literally or symbolically.
RE: Plant Id. - Dispator - 02-10-2017
(02-10-2017, 08:34 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Dispator, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as Napellus has also been mentioned You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..Good day!
I think comparisons with late medieval herbals are always interesting. I attach a few examples of Napellum / Napelo.
thanks for pointing it out, glad i'm not the only one considering such Id.
I love those comparisons to older depictions, shows how people perceived and depicted plants quite differently often considering folklore in their depictions.
RE: Plant Id. - -JKP- - 02-10-2017
We pretty much have to compare it to older depictions because that's how people saw and did things at the time and the VMS illustrator didn't work in a vacuum. It's highly unlikely that the oak-and-ivy combination is a coincidence. It was part of herbal tradition. (P.S., I use the term "oak" for convenience to mean oak-leaved plant. It wasn't always drawn as an oak. Some of the early versions of this combination look like they might be another plant with oak-like leaves).
RE: Plant Id. - Anton - 02-10-2017
Hi Dispator, and welcome to the forum!
In the Imagery subforum, we use to dedicate a single thread for each botanical section folio, so please feel free to comment in the dedicated threads and don't hesitate to create absent ones.
It's cool that you also identify You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as Aconite. This ID has been suggested in the past (by Steve D who is not a professional botanist AFAIK), and also this suggestion is in line with image mnemonics (Marco already referenced our thread about that above). The mnemonics suggestions sometimes are quite tentative and uncertain, so any valuation by professional botanists is appreciated.
You may wish to look through suggestions elaborated so far: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and provide your comments (in the subject threads).
RE: Plant Id. - Dispator - 02-10-2017
(02-10-2017, 10:48 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Dispator, and welcome to the forum!
In the Imagery subforum, we use to dedicate a single thread for each botanical section folio, so please feel free to comment in the dedicated threads and don't hesitate to create absent ones.
It's cool that you also identify You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as Aconite. This ID has been suggested in the past (by Steve D who is not a professional botanist AFAIK), and also this suggestion is in line with image mnemonics (Marco already referenced our thread about that above). The mnemonics suggestions sometimes are quite tentative and uncertain, so any valuation by professional botanists is appreciated.
You may wish to look through suggestions elaborated so far: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and provide your comments (in the subject threads).
Good day Anton
I checked it out, i believe it needs to be updated, i will post more plant ids got quite a few candidates, will post and comment more soon as time allows.
I posted this thread as a check to see what kind of responses and discussion it will garner.
RE: Plant Id. - -JKP- - 02-10-2017
Dispator (and others who are interested)...
Imagine if you could change monkshood so it has a better resemblance to the VMS plant...
Imagine making it a bit squatter.
Imagine making the head less of a tall stalk and more of a short stalk with just a few flowers coming from the top rather than a lot of them growing for some distance up the stalk.
Imagine giving it a name like dragon's-head that might account for the evocative shape of the leaves.
There is such a plant. It's called Dracocephalum grandiflorum or D. altaiense (it originated in west and central Asia). The common name is betony-leaved dragon's-head.
In other words, it looks a bit like monkshood at first glance but being squatter and more sparsely flowered, it is closer in proportions to plant f3v.