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+--- Thread: 68r1 and 2 (/thread-2088.html)
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Anton - 12-09-2017
Quote:Stars were already grouped into six different mangnitudes in Ptolemy's catalog (in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
What I mean is whether these groups were each worth a separate discussion. E.g. one group maybe governs plants, another one governs stones etc, something like that. The point is that if the paragraphs of 58r are related to these categories of stars - then, in the first place, - why should they?
RE: 68r1 and 2 - MarcoP - 12-09-2017
(12-09-2017, 06:43 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:Stars were already grouped into six different mangnitudes in Ptolemy's catalog (in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
What I mean is whether these groups were each worth a separate discussion. E.g. one group maybe governs plants, another one governs stones etc, something like that. The point is that if the paragraphs of 58r are related to these categories of stars - then, in the first place, - why should they?
Thank you for the clarification, Anton!
I am not familiar with anything of that kind. I think 58r might simply describe "magnitudes" from an astronomical point of view: what are the boundaries between different classes, how to classify stars, how many stars fall in each class etc. But this is speculative: it would be interesting to see if something of this kind can be found in ancient works.
While searching the subject, I saw a passage by (pseudo?) Agrippa which could be vaguely pertinent: Book IV, Chapter 2, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. It seems to be a system of magical symbols structured along star magnitudes.
The first magnitude is represented by a star.
The fifth, by a dot with a tail (punctum Caudatum).
The sixth by a star with a circle at its center.
![[Image: agripp4a.gif]](http://www.esotericarchives.com/agrippa/agripp4a.gif)
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Helmut Winkler - 12-09-2017
(12-09-2017, 03:16 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was looking for copies of the catalogues of Al-Sufi and Ulugh Beg, but never found any.Editions of star catalogues of Al-Sufi and Ulugh Beg, al-Sufi: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and Ulugh Beg: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a French transl. of al Sufi is online, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and there seem to be medieval Latin translations of al Sufi
There ia an interesting site, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. pagina.htm, including Forschungsbibliothek Gotha Pergamenthandschrift M II 141, the Latin text seems similar to the clm-text. Is it Ptolemaios?
I hope there is someone who knows more about these things than I do
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Ruby Novacna - 13-09-2017
I find that this last time the research on the images is making great strides. However, at the risk of being off topic, I would like to express my opinion: the first thing a Voynich researcher has to do is open his blog where visitors can consult these discoveries and his proposals. Otherwise all this will be diluted, scattered, cut out in the forums, as proof the blog of S.Bax with a multitude of badly tagged comments, coming from different people, different points of view, difficult to find.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Anton - 13-09-2017
Here's a quick screening (using voynichese.com) of vords occurring in all three paragraphs of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the first paragraph of f58v:
dal
s
aiin
ar
chal
The vord chy occurs in all three paragraphs of f58r, but not in the first paragraph of f58v.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Anton - 13-09-2017
Co-occurrences of star labels with the text of the aforementioned paragraphs of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are a complete mess.
The only perfect match is odaiin (6-ray star, no hole) -> 1st paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
odaiin is also met with in the 2nd paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (7-ray with a hole)
ytchody is an 8-ray star with a hole, but it occurs in the 2nd paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (7-ray with a hole)
dchol is a 7-ray star, no hole, but it occurs in the 3rd paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (8-ray with a hole)
chodar is a 6-ray star, no hole
This seems to suggest that, if it's all about stars, then star labels are not star names. This, in turn, can reasonably be only if elements of charts of f68r1 and r2 are strictly positioned. In other words, they are maps, the names of stars in which can be determined by the position thereof.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Davidsch - 13-09-2017
no not pseudo Marco, but the English translation is sometimes crooked.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Andrew Harrington - 13-09-2017
Here you go. I think that some of the smaller stars could still be moved about (Sceat and Mirach moved to Alpheratz and Almaak) and am not over-convinced by the 4 stars in the bottom left corner. The big stars seem to match though.
Sorry about the quality of the picture.
Andy
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Davidsch - 14-09-2017
May I ask where the names you used are coming from?
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Andrew Harrington - 14-09-2017
A modern astronomy book.