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RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - Emma May Smith - 19-08-2017
Marco and Koen, I want to thank you both for taking the time to discuss my remark about the Combinatorial Method. Obviously there are limitations on its use, at least for the individual researcher. Though I hope that the general idea, of using and questioning the artefact in order to evolve an explanation, is acceptable. Outside information might prove very useful, but we must have an absolute certainty about its appropriateness before using it.
Theories which use outside information will eventually prove worthless if the wrong information is brought in—that's the long and short of it. Theories which are built up by comparing and contrasting different parts of the manuscript will always have some worth, however little.
This is true of imagery and text. For example, I know that Koen has done research comparing the nymphs to one another, and the findings will always be valid. Yet comparing the nymphs to those in other manuscripts is always fraught because we can never be sure (or, at least, it takes huge proof) that the illustrator ever saw such and such a drawing.
RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - Koen G - 19-08-2017
Marco: I was comparing to archaeologists. It's a hindrance compared to the situation of professionals who do have access to the physical artifacts and can perform or commission tests. How often haven't researchers like Nick Pelling (and myself) wished that more tests had been performed, or would be performed, on things like the dark ink different paint types. I'd also like to see an analysis of vellum samples from different quires, for example. Hence, if I were in a position to commission those tests (assuming that they can be done in an acceptable manner), I would, but I'm not.
RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - MarcoP - 19-08-2017
(19-08-2017, 12:17 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco and Koen, I want to thank you both for taking the time to discuss my remark about the Combinatorial Method. Obviously there are limitations on its use, at least for the individual researcher. Though I hope that the general idea, of using and questioning the artefact in order to evolve an explanation, is acceptable. Outside information might prove very useful, but we must have an absolute certainty about its appropriateness before using it.
Theories which use outside information will eventually prove worthless if the wrong information is brought in—that's the long and short of it. Theories which are built up by comparing and contrasting different parts of the manuscript will always have some worth, however little.
This is true of imagery and text. For example, I know that Koen has done research comparing the nymphs to one another, and the findings will always be valid. Yet comparing the nymphs to those in other manuscripts is always fraught because we can never be sure (or, at least, it takes huge proof) that the illustrator ever saw such and such a drawing.
Hi Emma, I have only read a few web pages about Pallottino's method after you mentioned it. I understand his main "adversaries" were etymologists freely matching Etruscan words with similar words in other languages. This fits well with what you write about the intrinsic reliability of an analysis which is not based on external parallels.
I wish I knew more of the history of Etruscan research. For instance, how did they come to understand the difference between singular and plural words? Your current Voynichese research is possibly starting to give results in the identification of root forms (and there is a lot of work that can be done in this area). But I can't imagine how one can move from this structural analysis to the assignment of meanings (I do understand this is premature now). I guess that labels will play an important role in this, both because (as you wrote on your blog) labels can be expected to be in a "normal form" uninfluenced by other text and because they can benefit from some kind of (however obscure) visual hint to their meaning.
Maybe it would be a good idea to have a thread about Pallottino and Etruscan linguistic research (and its similarities and differences with Voynich research). Reading suggestions would also be welcome
RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - Emma May Smith - 19-08-2017
I believe that plurals were understood by recognizing that two or more nouns were referenced by a third noun. So, think of the difference between, "Alessandro, the son of Umberto," and "Fergus and Patrick, the sons of Michael." But this could also be cross referenced against ages on gravestones, which should always be in plural, "74 years." Of course, if there is more than one way or forming plurals then it gets harder. But given the length of the manuscript we should always have lots of examples to cross reference.
I'll answer the other part of your question later, as I certainly believe that we could (potentially) work out the grammar and meaning even were the language unknown. Though it would be an immense task.
RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - ReneZ - 19-08-2017
The fundamental difference between Etruscan research and Voynich MS text research is, of course, that the is no doubt at all that the Etruscan texts are meaningful text in a real language that was spoken by people and written down.
At the same time, there have been at least two people that I remember who were solving (i.e. trying to ....) both Voynichese and Etruscan in parallel with the same approach. I don't remember their names, but as far as I am concerned, that doesn't really seem to matter a lot.
There was a point about collaboration. This has not happened a lot, but I am aware of some good examples, e.g. the nice results presented at Stephen Bax' blog by Marco and Darren Worley.
I have collaborated closely and for an extended time with Gabriel Landini.
This works when people have a common goal (best clearly defined, i.e. not just 'solve the Voynich MS').
It fails when the goal is too much based on someone's conviction of the 'right way to go' because it will be hard to find others who will agree with it.
What may help is when people have complementary skills.
For what concerns the 'origin' of the MS, this is a topic that allows for some confusion.
When I talk (or write) about it, I mean the place where this particular MS was penned down.
The majority of indications, both from the materials, from the style of writing and the style of drawing betray the origin of the MS *in this sense* (at least to people trained in such matters).
Of course, there can be a combination of influences if the author(s)/scribe(s) originate from different places or moved around.
That the work may derive from earlier sources that also originate from elsewhere is not unlikely.
Whether the style of any such original sources survives in the document is a second "style question".
This requires very specific expertise. One can see some examples of these types of discussions in
the descriptions of astronomical manuscripts. They are always quite specific.
RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - MarcoP - 20-08-2017
(19-08-2017, 02:23 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I believe that plurals were understood by recognizing that two or more nouns were referenced by a third noun. So, think of the difference between, "Alessandro, the son of Umberto," and "Fergus and Patrick, the sons of Michael." But this could also be cross referenced against ages on gravestones, which should always be in plural, "74 years." Of course, if there is more than one way or forming plurals then it gets harder. But given the length of the manuscript we should always have lots of examples to cross reference.
Thank you, Emma! This is extremely interesting.
The context provided by the Voynich labels is of course very different from that of tomb inscriptions but, as you wrote, the manuscript has enough text to provide a good deal of information. In this case, one can speculate that VMS labels could mostly be singular nouns, while the text body will contain a much larger number of plural nouns: some of the differences between label and non-label statistics might be correlated with how noun number works.... I will see if I can get some numbers to explore this idea.
(19-08-2017, 02:23 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'll answer the other part of your question later, as I certainly believe that we could (potentially) work out the grammar and meaning even were the language unknown. Though it would be an immense task.
It is very likely that the Voynich ms was written at a time when some people could read it: the language doesn't seem to be as remote in time as Etruscan and it is well possible that its cognates are still spoken today. Yet your faith in the possibilities of your method is reassuring. I am looking forward to read more of how it is possible to infer the meaning of an unknown language!
RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - Emma May Smith - 20-08-2017
(20-08-2017, 06:40 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Emma May Smith Wrote:I'll answer the other part of your question later, as I certainly believe that we could (potentially) work out the grammar and meaning even were the language unknown. Though it would be an immense task.
It is very likely that the Voynich ms was written at a time when some people could read it: the language doesn't seem to be as remote in time as Etruscan and it is well possible that its cognates are still spoken today. Yet your faith in the possibilities of your method is reassuring. I am looking forward to read more of how it is possible to infer the meaning of an unknown language!
Maybe it's just hubris! But I think that the manuscript is such a coherent text, and likely rather stereotyped in content, that meaning could be teased out slowly. The problem is structure, as without it we can't establish relationships between words.
However, I doubt such a text could be written without some borrowed words, even if the language itself was unknown. I expect that many plant names and star names will be borrowed.
RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - Vonologia - 03-09-2017
(12-08-2017, 11:28 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(12-08-2017, 10:11 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As you can most likely tell, I only really listen to the research of a handful of people who a) think like me, or b) are smart enough to make interesting and challenging theories which disagree with me (hi, Nick!).
If it's only a list of one I'm on, that's actually quite a miserable state of affairs. :-(
Think bigger.
RE: Voynich theories and Voynich solutions - Davidsch - 30-09-2017
Honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress
M. Gandhi