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The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Printable Version

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RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - -JKP- - 11-07-2017

(11-07-2017, 07:01 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A figure with outstretched arm and cross ...

It is a bailiff (vronbote, flag in hand as sign of office) putting a cross on a door as sign of a legal claim, the claimant can take the cross down after a year and a day (see the next image) and swear to his claim


Helmut, that's an excellent example as it fits not only the image, but the legal theme that may be expressed in other poses.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - MarcoP - 23-10-2017

A fun one from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., 1320 ca, Northern France (Book of Hours, use of St Omer).

   

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - -JKP- - 02-11-2019

The cross-staff was used for siting for navigation, building construction and surveying, but I thought this illustration by Robert Fludd was interesting because he is specifically linking the use of the staff to observe stars for the purpose of horoscopy.

It's too late for the VMS, Fudd lived around the same time as John Dee's children, but I was able to confirm that he took a number of his ideas from earlier ones (although the exemplars can be hard to find, researchers mention the source-persons without mentioning the sources), so even though it's later, I thought it was worth posting as a visual link between the cross-staff and astrology:

    . Full image You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Koen G - 03-11-2019

Did this thread really need to be revived JKP  Tongue

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - -JKP- - 03-11-2019

There's nothing wrong with taking an idea and running with it to see where it goes. You can't know if it's a dead end or a good trail unless you check it out.

I think the ideas are well worth investigating even if they don't have an immediate payoff. Look how much new stuff we discover along the way.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - bi3mw - 03-11-2019

Not exactly a cross, but a clerk making astronomical measurements.

[Image: cross.png]
Britisch Library, Royal 20 B XX, Le Livre et le vraye hystoire du bon roy Alixandre, c. 1420, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Mark Knowles - 04-11-2019

Are there many examples of crosses in other herbal manuscripts of that period?

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - -JKP- - 05-11-2019

Not that I can think of off the top of my head, but I've looked at so many, they have started to blur together.

You do get the occasional drawing of kings in the herbal manuscripts, and sometimes crowns have crosses, but if there are crosses in the crowns, they are not there because of any direct relationship to the plants.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough free time right now to run through the drawings to check for sure, but for the most part, crosses are not thematically prevalent in herbal manuscripts until the later alchemical manuscripts (where kings and queens and crosses are mostly used as metaphors for chemical/spiritual processes). These were not especially common until after the mid-15th century.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - MarcoP - 05-11-2019

(04-11-2019, 01:59 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are there many examples of crosses in other herbal manuscripts of that period?

That's a strange question: crosses do not appear in the Voynich herbal sections. But of course, no, herbals mostly represent plants and crosses are not frequent. Some herbals include scenes with people and these scenes may occasionally include a cross. An example is the cross at the top of the building in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., XIII / XIV Century, Southern Italy, f.29v.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - VViews - 05-11-2019

(05-11-2019, 01:35 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(04-11-2019, 01:59 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are there many examples of crosses in other herbal manuscripts of that period?

That's a strange question: crosses do not appear in the Voynich herbal sections. 

I'll add that, considering the fact that the crosses appear in Q13 (except for those on 116v), the relevant question would be "are there examples of crosses in balneological manuscripts?", and the answer is yes, and actually in exactly the same context as they appear in the Voynich (held by a figure and at the top of a structure) as can be seen in the oft-cited Balneis Puteolanis manuscripts.
[Image: g74.034va.jpg]
Italy, ca. 1400, MS G.74 fol. 34v
[Image: 432px-Petrus_de_Ebulo_-_Balneum_Tripergulae.jpg]
Italy, 13thC, Ms. 1474, Biblioteca Angelica di Roma