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The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Printable Version

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RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Koen G - 01-07-2017

(01-07-2017, 09:30 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now this is a peculiar line of reasoning. "I can only think of paganism or souls, so it must be either paganism or souls".

Yes, you are right.

So far though, the evidence only allows for those two readings, but there may of course be more - it's never simple.

I also don't think the nymphs are souls as in the spirits of dead people. Like you say, this would result in a better mix of sexes (or an exclusively male group even).

The way I should have phrased it is that the evidence at the moment strongly suggest a pagan origin and/or an explanation of the nymphs as non-physical beings. I'd rather say human representations of abstract concepts than "souls".

"Spirit" is a broad term, but in some meanings of the word it can surely be relevant for the nymphs. What I don't understand is how this can be combined with the (still dominant?) balneo-medical view on quire 13...

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - -JKP- - 01-07-2017

Coventina's well appears to have been dedicated by a number of Germans in the Roman army.

It is situated near Hadrian's wall in the U.K., by the springs of Carrawburgh. Coventina was worshipped in other countries, as well. A nymphaeum was unearthed at the same site, which was excavated in 1876.

[Image: coventina-reliefs.jpg]   

[Image credits: Allason-Jones, 1996]


Artist's re-creation of the temple dedicated to Coventina:

[Image: templeinteriort.jpg]


Another dedication to Coventina:

[Image: 13016db3c4be3441942024701e5a3f4f--roman-...s-wall.jpg] [Image: 501583271.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=3&d=77BFB...4F32AD3138]
[Right image courtesy of Getty Images]

Coventina was particularly prevalent in Celtic areas (some refer to her as "Celtic Romano") and some say she is purely British and of Celtic origin but this is frequently disputed (dedications to Conventina have been found in Gaul and Spain, as well). She may have descended from Greco-Roman water goddesses. A Greco-Roman-style temple/nymphaeum was present, with structures and dedications from Roman soldiers at the Carrawburgh excavation and coins were found in the ancient fountain, a custom that is said to be of southern origin. A similar sculpture of water nymphs (right) was found in a Roman fort in Northumberland. Perhaps Coventina nymph triptiches are a synthesis of Roman and Celtic customs, as the Celts had a Trinity of Goddesses (not specifically associated with water) in their beliefs.

[Image: getpart.php?id=1266&file=10000000000002B...D0B005.png]
Nymphs at the spring of Les Fumades.


Coventina's attributes are a jug of liquid and sometimes also a branch. She is usually shown naked or half-naked.

Le Val des Nymphe in Provençe is an area of pools, botanical gardens, and medieval stone structures.


Anahatais, a Persian water goddess of the Mt. Hara region, holds a branch and a chalice of water:

[Image: bb2ee850c575c680169e57ec6d19e98b--the-do...rsians.jpg]

The following Persian relief is of interest because some say that the goddess on the left is Anahita (not all agree on her identity but most acknowledge her as a goddess). Note how she is holding a VMS-like oversized ring, a symbol of the investiture of royalty. There are other similar sculptures in which Anahita is similarly conferring a large ring to the king. Note also the grotto-like enclosure:

[Image: Taq-e_Bostan_-_High-relief_of_Anahita%2C..._Mazda.jpg]

[Image credit: Philippe Chavin, Wikipedia]

A Sassanid vessel shows what is assumed to be Anahita, divinity of the waters, holding a branch in one hand and flower in the other. She was considered the source of the "world river". She has also been associated (or possibly conflated) with Artemis.

Kastalia of Delphi (associated with the prophetic waters of the Castalian spring). Note her body proportions, the leaning posture, and jug (all echoed in later depictions of Coventina). There are also nymphs associated with the Delphi cave:

[Image: 5570d472f66bf1134286f22805583cd1.jpg]

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Davidsch - 02-07-2017

Very interesting reasoning and argumentation here.
Finally it all converges to the same point where one can make only one conclusion: not only the text is a deliberate and careful cipher, 
but also the images are carefully composed with elements that are general enough for not hinting or giving anything about the manuscript contents nor it's meaning.

Guessing why it has been done, has proven to be unsuccessful, and therefore a useless exercise.
The real question why it is all ciphered, can only be answered after decryption.

The best thing to ask is: How can we decipher medieval images?

Comparing images has shown that such a thing is not enough: we can find similar looking images, but never were exact replicated images or parts of images found.
There are some very small successes, such as in the zodiacal images and some plant parts, but never did it result in anything that was an exact match.
Such an exact match could show us a direction for solving the image and text mysteries of the manuscript, but none were found.

Are there OTHER WAYS to look at the Voynich manuscript and to decipher the origin of the images?

Because the known and present method of such study has not yet (was it 400 years of study only ..?  resulted in something, 
perhaps it is time to invent and to rethink the methods.

This thread is about the assumed lack of Christian influences and I've argumented before that there are many religious details to be seen in the VMS.

The specific cross alone is not only a Christian image, for the time period it is also a very specific one: it points exactly to the  Roman Catholic Church.
Then we have the merlons, which are typical Italian as well. If we would combine those two facts we get: Italy + [font=sans-serif]Roman Catholic Church.[/font]

Is there something else we can agree on? Probably, yes. There are the sun and the moon diagrams and pictures (Rosette). From where do they come?
Probably Italy, but from which exact location and would it be very difficult to find out where the typical Voynich sun and moons are coming from exactly?

There were specific places in Italy were scribes were manufactured in the 15th century: Monastic Scribes and Libraries and universities.
Let us concentrate on the Northern Italy region (now Italy & Switzerland & Austria). Find out where those were located.
Find specific scribes and compare the Sun and Moon diagrams. 

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RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - -JKP- - 02-07-2017

(02-07-2017, 01:29 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....but also the images are carefully composed with elements that are general enough for not hinting or giving anything about the manuscript contents nor it's meaning...

I think it's quite possible the manuscript was visually crafted to obscure its meaning. The only parts I have doubts about is the plant sections. The plants seem too numerous and too carefully drawn to be there simply as decoys. Whoever created them seems to have had a genuine interest in recording information about plants (at least visually).


But, it has occurred to me, as one example, that the star labels might not be star names as many people assume—that the stars might not be stars at all. Maybe they are cities. If you change the star shapes to dots or castles and consider sun and moon to stand for directions (or to be decorative), then they look like some of the maps from the middle ages.



Quote:There were specific places in Italy were scribes were manufactured in the 15th century: Monastic Scribes and Libraries and universities.
Let us concentrate on the Northern Italy region (now Italy & Switzerland & Austria). Find out where those were located.
Find specific scribes and compare the Sun and Moon diagrams. 

I've looked into this pretty extensively, and have collected names of scribes (or studios, since the individual scribes were not always known). There were many scribes in Lombardy and the parts of northern Italy that bordered southern Lombardy (e.g., Milan, which was on the border between Lombardy and the Italian states at the time, Padua and Florence). Also Paris and parts of Flanders (in fact Flemish & Normandy-area illustrators were often contracted to illustrate the work of Parisian scribes). Also Nuremburg, Swabia/Tirol and parts of the Alsace (esp. St. Gall) up to Augsburg, and London and Bury St. Edmunds. I've mentioned the Lauber studio a number of times and have posted examples of the similarity in palette and style to the VMS drawings.

These were the "hot spots" for manuscript production in the 15th and late 14th centuries. They were not the only ones, of course, but they were ones with significant influence and production volume. Many were monastic, but some were secular.


Many of the examplars these scribes used (especially for herbal manuscripts) came from the earlier Lombardic colonies, which were multicultural centers of learning that included Lombards, Jews, Muslims, and Christians (Bari/Naples/Salerno). Diverse scholars were attracted to the boot of Italy because of the medical schools and brought back manuscripts that seem to have especially ended up in Lombardy, the northern Italian border, London, St. Gall, and Paris (and to some extent in Trento and southern Bavaria).


But I'm not certain that whoever created the VMS was directly associated with these major centers. The handwriting is clearly not a highly-trained hand. It's tidy and careful, but it's not scribal quality. I still wonder whether it was a traveler, someone who had access to libraries but wasn't necessarily tied to one place. The influences seem more diverse than conventional manuscripts.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Davidsch - 03-07-2017

@JKP

I am not writing "maybe" like you, I am am writing "images are deliberately ciphered" because I want to move forward.
Moving forward can only be done by make assumptions, or as you wish conclusions, (which sounds stronger, but really, these days the difference between them is not as strong anymore)

If you have done all these investigations, is it possible to compare the sun an moon images?

Getting manuscripts with Lombardy origin was impossible for me: after writing many emails and zero response I gave up on Lombardy.


Another thought is this: 
suppose the text will be deciphered one day and it will not provide any specific clue on it's location, such research as previously suggested on images would prove to be very useful,  even then.

RE: The cross, again - -JKP- - 06-07-2017

Here is another version of the astrolabe illustration, with fewer decorative additions:

[Image: hermannus.jpg]

RE: The cross, again - Helmut Winkler - 06-07-2017

(06-07-2017, 01:27 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is another version of the astrolabe illustration, with fewer decorative additions:

[Image: hermannus.jpg]

This is Ashmole 304 I quoted in post 6

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Davidsch - 06-07-2017

background and more info on that: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - MarcoP - 11-07-2017

A figure with outstretched arm and cross appears in a manuscript pointed out by Helmut.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., XIV Century

The differences between the two images are numberless, still the pose is rare enough and worth a look.

RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Helmut Winkler - 11-07-2017

A figure with outstretched arm and cross ...

It is a bailiff (vronbote, flag in hand as sign of office) putting a cross on a door as sign of a legal claim, the claimant can take the cross down after a year and a day (see the next image) and swear to his claim