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+--- Thread: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences (/thread-1975.html)
RE: The cross, again - Koen G - 29-06-2017
I also find it hard to see it as anything else than a finial. I think this is the case because bulbous structures are common in Voynich architecture (and containers
).Marco, that's a good point about those crosses in the marginalia. It's strange though... We have a manuscript with an unusual lack of clear christian imagery. Even if the cross held by the q13 nymph is a Cross, then one must still admit that its context is rather unusual.
So in the manuscript's contents we have a disconnect from christian tradition, and, in my opinion, various scenes which would need some explaining if they came under the priest's eyes, as a matter of speech.
Then why, suddenly, in the marginalia, does the scribe feel the need to Christianize his phrase by adding crosses? The person who wrote this marginalia clearly had a normal, common reflex which points directly and unambiguously to the medieval christian tradition.
I see two options:
1) The person who wrote the marginal text with the crosses was in fact not involved in creating the manuscript.
2) The person was involved, but as a scribe or copyist, not as a creative mind behind the contents.
I say so because this one marginal note shows a cultural reflex which is largely missing from the rest of the manuscript.
RE: The cross, again - -JKP- - 29-06-2017
I am very ambivalent about whether the text on 116v is one of the scribes or perhaps a "commentator" or mentor, or perhaps an immediately following owner or user of the VMS (assuming it is a practical manual).
I keep going back and forth on it, but I'm leaning about 55% in favor of the marginalia writer being a different person from whoever scribed the main text. Most of the letter forms are different, even if only slightly so.
So... the crosses on 116v may have little to do with other cross shapes in the manuscripts.
If the marginalia on 116v is a healing charm, the crosses are probably crosses (genuflect signs). If the marginalia is not a healing charm, then they might be plus signs. Plus signs that were not crosses were not common in medieval texts but I think I have seen them.
RE: The cross, again - MarcoP - 30-06-2017
(29-06-2017, 09:25 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, that's a good point about those crosses in the marginalia. It's strange though... We have a manuscript with an unusual lack of clear christian imagery. Even if the cross held by the q13 nymph is a Cross, then one must still admit that its context is rather unusual.
Hi Koen, the very limited presence of Christian imagery is not unusual in scientific works. The VMS has many peculiarities, but in this respect it is not exceptional.
Think for instance of:
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Arderne NL Sweden X 188
(29-06-2017, 09:25 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So in the manuscript's contents we have a disconnect from christian tradition, and, in my opinion, various scenes which would need some explaining if they came under the priest's eyes, as a matter of speech.
I agree on the ms not looking like an illuminated bible. As I said, the opinions of those that judge it a medical work (from Barschius to Touwaide) seem well-grounded to me.
I would be curious to know if your allusion to the scenes being unacceptable to the clergy of the time is somehow documented. This would be an interesting subject for a new thread. I am not an expert, but I don't think a learned priest would have been scandalized by the ms: I don't think Kircher was, and the XVII Century was not exactly more open-minded than the XV Century. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the VMS turned out to have been written by friars or under their supervision (like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
The illustrations You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. prove that in the XIV century there was considerable tolerance for weird images.
The “flying penis” he posted decorates a text of Canon Law (the legal corpus of the Roman Catholic Church).
In the other manuscript, nuns are picking penises from trees.
Maybe things were much stricter in the early XV Century, but I would appreciate some evidence.
(29-06-2017, 09:25 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Then why, suddenly, in the marginalia, does the scribe feel the need to Christianize his phrase by adding crosses?
Ahahah this really makes it sound funny: the guy running to his desk with an unstoppable urge to Christianize his ms!
Personally, I see no evidence of anything happening suddenly nor of a Christianizing urge. I just see some annotations that are partly similar to the rest of the book and partly different. I don't think this is unusual for marginal annotations. If the crosses mark a spell, they are not much of a Christianization: it's more popular superstition than the doctrine of the church. Also, images of Jesus and Mary would have been more effective than a naked woman and a goat.
(29-06-2017, 09:25 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The person who wrote this marginalia clearly had a normal, common reflex which points directly and unambiguously to the medieval christian tradition.
I see two options:
1) The person who wrote the marginal text with the crosses was in fact not involved in creating the manuscript.
2) The person was involved, but as a scribe or copyist, not as a creative mind behind the contents.
I say so because this one marginal note shows a cultural reflex which is largely missing from the rest of the manuscript.
In my opinion, the most striking feature of the marginal annotations (in 17r, 66r, 116v) is that they use the Latin alphabet. Since some of the Latin characters used are similar to those of Voynichese, and in two out of three cases also Voynichese words appear together with those written in the Latin alphabet, I tend to think of them as written by the author but, as I said above, the matter is uncertain.
My opinion (an idea I got from Stephen Bax's paper from which I first came to know of the VMS) is that the author came from a different culture. My personal speculation is that writing the ms could have taken several years and during that period the author came in touch with linguistic and cultural traits that are reflected in the (later) marginal annotations. On the other hand, the color annotations (which are integral to the text) also use the Latin alphabet: its usage is not something that only appears at a second time. As always, many possibilities are open.
As I wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the cross in 79v seems to me something like the Christian symbols in Picatrix: a peripheral element with respect to the main subject of the work.
The crosses in 116v look even more peripheral, since they appear after the main body of text and in a different alphabet.
RE: The cross, again - Koen G - 30-06-2017
Hi Marco
I don't necessarily mean the nudity, but rather the seemingly "pagan" character of these "water nymphs". This, together with the script, might perhaps raise some eyebrows, in the best case. Of course it's hard to say Who would or would not object to which scene. It all depends on how it would be explained by the owner and the viewer.
Anyway, the christian or non-christian character of the VM is something I find fascinating. This is my impression of the manuscripts you posted. Please correct me if I'm wrong, you have more experience with these things than I do. Just for convenience I use the word "secular" to mean that there is no directly visible influence of Christianity.
- Florence Plut.13.16: this looks mostly like a manuscript that has its origin in older sources. Essentially my view on the VM is that it is similar, yet from a much less mainstream, less documented tradition. The Florence MS has not been christianized, so I agree that, like the VM, it contains little Christian influences.
Also, thank you for linking this MS, there is an image in it which I find extremely interesting related to the cross-nymph, but I'll get back to that in another post.
- Tubingen: again a wonderful MS. I agree that its subject is secular, but it has been thoroughly medievalized, with medieval kings, knights, peasants... This also comes with references to the religion which dominated every aspect of medieval society. Just a few folios further, there is a man painting a madonna with child and another one carving saint statues (left) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . I'm not trying to be nitpicky, just saying that these images, whatever their origin (also older?) have been made or adapted to speak clearly to a medieval audience. This has only happened a little bit in the VM, mostly in the Zodiac section (crossbowman...)
- The Egerton is all about plants, but I agree that the images treat their subject in a "secular" way. It demonstrates perfectly that the VM plant sections' secular nature is not unique, but offers no satisfactory parallel for the other sections, which are much heavier on human activity.
- Cadamosto is similar, but it does contain much more human activity, which is immediately recognizable as typically medieval: hunting, farming, riding horses, animal husbandry. The first image is of a king on a throne. But I admit that it is surprisingly secular.
- Arderne: indeed, this is also a scientific manuscript, but it is largely populated by tonsured monks and other typical medieval figures like noblemen.
Might it help to make some sort of typology of the medieval scientific manuscript? Going by the examples you provided, it looks like they are either:
- Relatively faithful renditions of older sources
- Creative adaptations of older sources, translated for a medieval audience
- About plants (some overlap with 1. here)
- About practical matters, but firmly grounded in medieval culture
- A composition of some of the above
It is for those reasons that I believe the VM must have descended from rare older sources, with relatively little translation to 15th century customs.
RE: The cross, again - MarcoP - 30-06-2017
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Marco
I don't necessarily mean the nudity, but rather the seemingly "pagan" character of these "water nymphs". This, together with the script, might perhaps raise some eyebrows, in the best case. Of course it's hard to say Who would or would not object to which scene. It all depends on how it would be explained by the owner and the viewer.
Hi Koen, while I intuitively understand what you say, I would still like to see some evidence. Do we know for certain that an unreadable script was looked at with suspicion? Do we know of examples?
The problem with the nymphs is even harder. The closest I can think of are alchemical or magical manuscripts or possibly the truly pagan astrological manuscripts. What was the reaction to them? I must say I don't know, but for the fact that astrology was mostly tolerated.
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, the christian or non-christian character of the VM is something I find fascinating.
This is my impression of the manuscripts you posted. Please correct me if I'm wrong, you have more experience with these things than I do. Just for convenience I use the word "secular" to mean that there is no directly visible influence of Christianity.
As far as I know, there is a large consensus about the character of the ms not being religious. I can't think of many elements to support the opposite view. I think we might as well use the word “secular” in its proper sense of “not connected with religion” in general.
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Florence Plut.13.16: this looks mostly like a manuscript that has its origin in older sources. Essentially my view on the VM is that it is similar, yet from a much less mainstream, less documented tradition. The Florence MS has not been christianized, so I agree that, like the VM, it contains little Christian influences.
Also, thank you for linking this MS, there is an image in it which I find extremely interesting related to the cross-nymph, but I'll get back to that in another post.
The link was originally You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., so thanks to him
The tradition of Plut.13.16 is well documented.
In my opinion, the idea that the VMS derives from an earlier tradition can only be meaningfully discussed together with the details of that tradition. Since you provide none, there is nothing I can say.
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tubingen: again a wonderful MS. I agree that its subject is secular, but it has been thoroughly medievalized, with medieval kings, knights, peasants... This also comes with references to the religion which dominated every aspect of medieval society. Just a few folios further, there is a man painting a madonna with child and another one carving saint statues (left) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . I'm not trying to be nitpicky, just saying that these images, whatever their origin (also older?) have been made or adapted to speak clearly to a medieval audience. This has only happened a little bit in the VM, mostly in the Zodiac section (crossbowman...)
Yes, this manuscript documents an innovative take on a very ancient subject (astrology). Similar elements appear in the Voynich zodiac, but of course the main subject of the VMS appears to be plants, so an astrological ms necessarily is a limited parallel.
The madonnas in the illustration of the Children of Mercury are accidental Christian elements like the crosses on the VMS crowns. The cross in 79v seems to be something less accidental. The Tubingen manuscript is an interesting comparison with some of the VMS illustrations because people appearing here are often symbolic and don't try to represent reality. The Children of the Planets scenes mix realistic and symbolic elements and are quite complex.
The ms also includes some of the circular diagrams (rotae) that are so typical of medieval cosmologies:
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I also find the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to provide an interesting parallel for some details of the Rosettes page.
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Egerton is all about plants, but I agree that the images treat their subject in a "secular" way. It demonstrates perfectly that the VM plant sections' secular nature is not unique, but offers no satisfactory parallel for the other sections, which are much heavier on human activity.
Agreed. The VMS clearly is much more varied in its subjects and layout. It could also be a collection of only partially related works, or also of unrelated works.
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Cadamosto is similar, but it does contain much more human activity, which is immediately recognizable as typically medieval: hunting, farming, riding horses, animal husbandry. The first image is of a king on a throne. But I admit that it is surprisingly secular.
This ms is made up of two parts: a herbal and something like a “tacuinum sanitatis” with a number of human-populated scenes. The herbal section is a good parallel for the medieval zoomorphic elements that are so prominent in the VMS.
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Arderne: indeed, this is also a scientific manuscript, but it is largely populated by tonsured monks and other typical medieval figures like noblemen.
I agree to this to. These human figures are very realistic and actually illustrate specific concepts (various illnesses, social classes etc).
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So well, perhaps I should better say that the Voynich contains relatively few signs of medieval christian culture. If you look at a MS like Tubingen Md 2, which treats traditional secular matter, you see the difference.
Maybe one could say that the VMS doesn't represent much of medieval dresses (most people are naked). It does contain many signs of medieval European secular culture. E.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the zodiac medallions, the O-T globes, the style of the herbal (think of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), the swallowtail merlons.
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Might it help to make some sort of typology of the medieval scientific manuscript? Going by the examples you provided, it looks like they are either:
- Relatively faithful renditions of older sources
- Creative adaptations of older sources, translated for a medieval audience
- About plants (some overlap with 1. here)
- About practical matters, but firmly grounded in medieval culture
- A composition of some of the above
I would add to the list highly innovative works, like Fontana's encrypted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or the alchemical You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The kind of stuff that it's difficult to make sense of at first sight or without reading the text.
(30-06-2017, 12:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems clear that the VM is a composition, and (3) covers at least part of it. But I think that the other sections remain mostly unparalleled. And when there are parallels, those are usually of pre-medieval origin
Not much can be said about the unparalleled parts: we can only speculate. If some images are paralleled by pre-medieval documents, those specific documents should be discussed. As I said above, I find several medieval parallels relevant, but I agree that these parallels only cover a minority of the ms. An art historian like Panofsky didn't have trouble dating the ms to 1410-30, so it seems that to him there were enough recognizable elements; he found the parallel with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. highly relevant, and I can see why.
RE: The cross, again - Koen G - 30-06-2017
One problem in discussing these issues is that the VM is what looks like a somewhat unified (uniformized?
) composite manuscript. I actually think that we agree about more things than we'd think initially. But the composite nature, and the fact that it's been edited to some extent, also imply that there are chronological differences and layers in and between the various sections. So what holds true for one section, may not for all.For example, I won't debate that the crossbowman is a medieval character, and some of the best parallels for the Gemini are also found in medieval manuscripts, both astronomical and astrological. Also the cosmological diagrams, and especially those circles with four figures around them, have some convincing medieval parallels.
However, I think q13 and perhaps the nymphs around the Zodiac emblems are relatively unaltered images from an ancient source. Since I do believe this source must have been rare and now likely lost, as you correctly remark all possible evidence is indirect and relatively weak, and needs some degree of interpretation.
The same holds true for the plants. We see some few tantalizing parallels with other traditions, enough to know that the VM plants weren't invented or all drawn from nature. I think you might agree that they could derive from an older source, but this also is hard to prove beyond any doubt.
Fragments like the Johnson Papyrus do prove that very old illustrated herbal manuscripts did exist, but they were inscribed on a fragile medium.
Anyway, to get back to the point of this thread, I think the VM is a Sammelschrift which includes documents from different times, and at some point was stylistically unified and edited. But for some reason it has been "updated" much less than similar manuscripts. This is indeed something we still see in the more authentic astronomical manuscripts.
RE: The cross, again - -JKP- - 30-06-2017
(30-06-2017, 05:48 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
As far as I know, there is a large consensus about the character of the ms not being religious. I can't think of many elements to support the opposite view. I think we might as well use the word “secular” in its proper sense of “not connected with religion” in general.
...
I would agree that the majority opinion in the Voynich community seems to be that the character of the Ms is not religious.
I also agree that it may be a secular manuscript.
But...
I have been saying for a long time that it looks very Pagan, not only because of the nymphs, but because of the nymphs' association with the water. This speaks very strongly of Pagan beliefs.
In the Pagan religion (I mean the Pagan goddess/nymph worship of the Grego-Romans, not the generic word pagan that many people now use to denote anything that isn't one of the current major religions), nymphs were the providers and protectors of water. They were worshipped with great reverence and many temples were built in their honor. Water was life and it was the nymphs who decided who would get it and who wouldn't.
Shrines were built near water sources so that Pagan believers could give offerings (the offering was often a bowl, something that can hold water) to plead for a continued water supply. There were fresh-water nymphs and sea nymphs. They had names. There are about 300 or so that have been identified by historians and quite a few were associated with a specific water source.
The Pagans prayed to the nymphs, they sacrificed to the nymphs, they wrote prayers and poems to the nymphs (the layout of folios 81 and 82 has always looked to me like it might be a poem or song), and they built circular ponds and temples to nymphs and goddesses, often with statues of nymphs under some or all of the archways (also very reminiscent of the VMS). Any time water was involved, it was assumed that nymphs were part of it.
Paganism still exists in a few small pockets and still existed in many areas in the 15th century.
When I posted about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it was to illustrate many parallels to the VMS rosettes page.
But...
another reason I blogged about it was to illustrate that even a Christian cardinal was known to have expressed reverence for Pagan beliefs, despite his high position within the church! He built an entire garden as a shrine and offering to the Pagan heroes/gods. It is filled with religious imagery that most Christians don't recognize as religious because the old gods and old religions are seen as "myths" and "cults" and often referred to as such, but when you read about Pagan beliefs and read their prayers and philosophies, one discovers that they believed just as strongly in their gods and goddesses, and were just as devout as those who follow modern religions. They didn't perceive them as myths.
Many of the philosophical ideas for Villa d'Este and a number of other gardens of the time were inspired by Pliny and Ovid.
Ippolito d'Este included the old planet/star-based Greco-Roman gods, the Ephesian Diana, the round pools with nymphs in the archways, a fountain to honor Bacchus, Minerva, the goddess of wisdom. Painter Federico Zuccari was commissioned to paint images of goddesses and the trials of Hercules (along with Girolamo Muziano).
This was not just a nod to bygone customs, Ippolito followed Pagan customs in his personal behavior, as well. It has been said about him:
"He showed in his letters a frivolity bordering pagan morals. He fathered several illegitimate children."
These days, it's not the kind of behavior one expects from a Christian cardinal and it apparently wasn't in those days, either. When someone writes "bordering pagan morals" you have to wonder if they are being polite or if they are simply not willing to believe that a Christian cardinal could actually have Pagan beliefs.
More than one pope strongly objected to the Pagan imagery in the d'Este garden so they obviously didn't see it as merely decorative statuary.
The later caretakers of the Villa d'Este found some of the Pagan imagery offensive:
"The fountain of Diana of Ephesus, or Goddess of Fertility, stood in the central niche of the Water Organ fountain, but it was perceived to be too pagan and it was thus relocated in a rather hidden part of the gardens." ---romanhomes.com
It was Cardinal Alessandro d'Este, successor to Ippolito, who had the goddess Diana moved to a private part of the gardens, in 1611.
If the creator was Pagan, then we have possible motive for writing in code. By the 15th century, in a number of regions, Pagans were considered heretics.
Persecution of Pagans began in late Roman times and became prevalent in the time of Constantine and continued from then onward:
"Tolerance was very high in pagan states but more limited in states where the official religion was monotheistic. But there have also been states where religions and creeds other than the official one are not tolerated at all. This was the case, for example, with Catholic Spain from the 15th century until late in the 20th century." ---T. Pavlidis, 2010
If the person who masterminded the Voynich Manuscript held Pagan beliefs, then the VMS is overflowing with religious imagery. If the person who masterminded it did not hold Pagan beliefs, then perhaps it is based on sources that were strongly Pagan and could be thought of as indirectly expressing religious iconography.
RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Koen G - 01-07-2017
JKP: that's a good point; if the Voynich imagery could have appeared "pagan religious" in some way, its owner would have been in serious danger. I wouldn't like to be caught reading the VM during any of the various inquisitions, for example (even though it didn't exist yet during the early ones).
I still think the VM imagery was secular in its subject and intentions, even though you are of course correct in stating that the ultimate origin of such pagan figures is religious.
Marco: one important point I did not mention in my previous response is that in normal medieval manuscripts, nudity is not gratuitous. A figure is nude because it's bathing, or being examined by a doctor, or...
The examples you posted also contain a nude woman, but she is literally riding a massive ****, allowing us to read this nude figure as purposefully vulgar. This was allowed and somewhat expected in marginal illuminations, which were often humorous - and part of that is vulgar humor.
The five hundred nude Voynich nymphs are not meant to be vulgar. Nor are they all being examined. Nor are they all bathing. Take the nymphs around the later Zodiac emblems. They appear to be walking in a procession, in various yet at the same time surprisingly limited poses. In the diagram below, the blue leg is always the one closest to the viewer, and it's always stretched. On the five hundred nymphs in the manuscript, there are only a few who violate this rule, including, of course, the crossbowman.
![[Image: legtrace.jpg?w=616]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/legtrace.jpg?w=616)
Obviously medieval imagery which descends from pagan examples, like the Aratea tradition, sometimes maintain the nudity there.
One exception I can think of is that of "souls", in heaven or hell. Those are nude to show that they have left their earthly garb (and possessions and status) behind.
So this implies that the nymphs, taken as a whole, are either of pagan descent or "souls". Or both.
RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - MarcoP - 01-07-2017
JKP Wrote:If the person who masterminded the Voynich Manuscript held Pagan beliefs, then the VMS is overflowing with religious imagery.
Since about 75% of the Voynich illustrations are exclusively botanic, I would say that, if the ms is overflowing with anything, it's with plants. Apparently, botany was the main subject of the work.
But yes, the so-called nymphs might be goddesses of some kind. Personally, I tend to exclude any relation with the Greco-Roman or Egyptian religions, since most of their main gods were male and they don't appear in the ms. Whatever the interpretation of the nymphs, it must provide an explanation for their almost exclusive female gender.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Jean Seznec is a great book about the role of pagan deities in medieval and Renaissance Europe.
The above mentioned Tubingen Md.2 mostly is about the pagan planetary gods.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you can see people dancing and bathing under the influence of the naked pagan goddess Venus, holding in her hand a torch burning with the flame of passion. We are all familiar with images like these and we can easily recognize them most of the times. Villa D'Este and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Padova are good examples of how myths of a pagan origin could results in a monumentality as impressive as that of Christian cathedrals. The fresco representing Venus and Cupid in Padua could almost seem to mock Christianity.
I am puzzled the fact that personifications of the Sun and the Moon are present in a well recognizable form, while there seem to be no personifications of the other five planets. This might be a hint to a set of astrological/astronomical concepts different from the Greco-Roman (that was also assimilated by Perso-Arabic astrology). In principle, this might also suggest a relation with a relation with only two major gods identified with the Sun and the Moon.
In general, a problem with medieval culture, is where to put the boundary between religion, myth and magic. I find it very likely that the so called nymphs are “spirits” of some kind, but I am not sure this would count as “religion”.
RE: The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - MarcoP - 01-07-2017
(01-07-2017, 09:12 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One exception I can think of is that of "souls", in heaven or hell. Those are nude to show that they have left their earthly garb (and possessions and status) behind.
So this implies that the nymphs, taken as a whole, are either of pagan descent or "souls". Or both.
Now this is a peculiar line of reasoning. "I can only think of paganism or souls, so it must be either paganism or souls".