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The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Printable Version

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The cross and the presence or lack of Christian influences - Koen G - 27-06-2017

The cross has been bouncing around the blogosphere again recently, so I thought it might be worthwhile to open a new thread about it - this is always easier for discussion.

There are three (?) crosses in the manuscript. Two are placed on top of crowns, symbols of monarchy. The third, on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , is held aloft by a naked woman.

Basically, one can go about interpreting this image in two ways:

  1. It is a christian cross. 

  2. It is something else.
In the first case, looking deeper into the cross could give us valuable information about the cultural background and mindset of the maker. Are there parallels for the pose and the figure holding the cross? Why is the only non-regal cross in the manuscript found in such an atypical position?

Proponents of the second case usually read the object as a type of measuring device. Diane likened it to the Egyptian Merkhet:
[Image: merkhet.jpg]
These were two separate sticks, but they were sometimes depicted like a cross.


Searcher posted images of cross-staffs:
[Image: cross-staff-1669-na-mariner-sighting-on-...FF7K2E.jpg]

And while googling these images I saw that the Romans had a similar device called the groma, which was basically a weighted cross on a stick:
[Image: 667af07088fcb4d0e8cf93c064083bf6.jpg]


The bottom line is that there seems to have been some universal preference for these cross-shaped objects for making certain observations and measurements.

In JKP's latest You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., he explains the use of the cross-pole. One of the images he linked I found particularly interesting, since it also includes a set of wavy lines:
[Image: SightingLabe.png]

The gentlemen are using a sighting tube and astrolabe respectively, but what is the thing all the way on the left? It also appears to include a cross shape. Might it be some kind of armilary sphere with ecliptic and equator?



(For my personal opinion, I still see this whole composition as referring to Argo Navis, but I believe the images are layered by design. Canopus' position close to the horizon made it a reference point of particular importance in the night sky. Hence, this reading does not exclude but rather reinforce the possibility of the cross' being a sighting device).

RE: The cross, again - -JKP- - 27-06-2017

(27-06-2017, 06:34 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

There are three (?) crosses in the manuscript. Two are placed on top of crowns, symbols of monarchy.

Yes. In the 14th and early 15th centuries, in central Europe in particular, a cross on a rounded crown typically represented the Holy Roman Emperor. Pointed crowns and rounded crowns without crosses were usually kings and other higher nobility, and the three-tiered peaked crown was the pope. As one radiates out from this region, the crown designs gradually change so that the exact same design conventions don't always apply, but the general idea often does.

There have always been "crown wars" to assert one's dominance. By the 17th and 18th century many of the higher nobility were wearing the kind of crown that was reserved for the Emperor in earlier centuries, and it becomes more difficult, after the 16th century, to associate a specific crown style with a specific level of royalty.




Quote:In JKP's latest You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., he explains the use of the cross-pole. One of the images he linked I found particularly interesting, since it also includes a set of wavy lines:
[Image: SightingLabe.png]

The gentlemen are using a sighting tube and astrolabe respectively, but what is the thing all the way on the left? It also appears to include a cross shape. Might it be some kind of armilary sphere with ecliptic and equator?


...


I'm not sure either. My best guess so far is also an armillary sphere, mostly based on that inner "bar" being at an angle compared to the one that is drawn on over it, and there are examples of images with people holding them in other manuscripts, but I'm not 100% sure.

RE: The cross, again - Koen G - 27-06-2017

Meanwhile I checked the library's image description, there they just call it a sphere. So yeah it's just one of those "spheres on a stick" Smile

There's something else about this image which might be interesting for Voynich research in general. You pointed out the relevance of the cloud band above the men. There are different types: the outer band has three lobes and the inner bands are serpent-like.

Might this mean the difference between "actual clouds", i.e. transition from the sky to what lies beyond on the one hand, and "invisible borders between zones" on the other?

If so, might the different patterns in the VM indicate a similar difference? I'm inclined to think so...

RE: The cross, again - -JKP- - 27-06-2017

(27-06-2017, 10:14 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

There's something else about this image which might be interesting for Voynich research in general. You pointed out the relevance of the cloud band above the men. There are different types: the outer band has three lobes and the inner bands are serpent-like.

Might this mean the difference between "actual clouds", i.e. transition from the sky to what lies beyond on the one hand, and "invisible borders between zones" on the other?

If so, might the different patterns in the VM indicate a similar difference? I'm inclined to think so...


Given the overall "feel" of the VMS as having a focus on symbology, meaning, and sometimes double meanings, I'm inclined to think so too.

RE: The cross, again - MarcoP - 28-06-2017

(27-06-2017, 06:34 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In JKP's latest You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., he explains the use of the cross-pole. One of the images he linked I found particularly interesting, since it also includes a set of wavy lines:
[Image: SightingLabe.png]

The gentlemen are using a sighting tube and astrolabe respectively, but what is the thing all the way on the left? It also appears to include a cross shape. Might it be some kind of armilary sphere with ecliptic and equator?


I greatly enjoyed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.!!! She comments on it being "strikingly similar to the Voynich iconography". The specific image posted by JKP is interesting as a comparison between an armillary sphere (labeled "spera") and a spherical astrolabe ("astrolabiu[m]"). If I understand correctly, the spherical astrolabe evolved from the armillary sphere. For instance, the positions of several fixed stars are marked using pointers like those that can be seen in flat astrolabes. See also Oxford, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

I agree with what You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about the nymph-with-cross: her posture is like that of other nymphs holding various objects. In my opinion, this posture must have a specific meaning which doesn't apply to the cross only, but to the other objects as well.

[Image: brandish.png]

I would also add to the relevant set one of the ring bearing nymphs that VViews discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
[Image: voynich80v.jpg]

RE: The cross, again - Helmut Winkler - 28-06-2017

There is sp(h)era written above the instrument in Digby 46. There is a similar image with some variations in   Oxford, Bodley, Ashmole 304, f. 2v (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), the ms. is interesting in itself, look at the round diagrams

And I dont want to be rude, but Digby mss. are Bodley as well, not BL

RE: The cross, again - -JKP- - 28-06-2017

(28-06-2017, 09:22 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

And I dont want to be rude, but Digby mss. are Bodley as well, not BL

Oh, of course, yes, as soon as you mentioned it, I remembered. I will have to correct that on my recent blog. Thank you.

RE: The cross, again - MarcoP - 29-06-2017

(27-06-2017, 06:34 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are three (?) crosses in the manuscript. Two are placed on top of crowns, symbols of monarchy. The third, on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , is held aloft by a naked woman.


I would like to add that crosses also appear in the two central Latin-alphabet lines of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The similarity of this paragraph with Christian-magic incantations/prayers has often been discussed (e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). These incantations typically add a thin Christian layer on magic rituals that likely originated in the pre-Christian era. 
An example can be read here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Of course, there are several big uncertainties: we cannot understand the Latin-alphabet text, the last page might be unrelated with the rest of the ms, etc. Still I think these crosses are worth mentioning in this context.

RE: The cross, again - VViews - 29-06-2017

Another element which has been referred to as a potential cross appears on f You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., although it can easily be argued that the resemblance with a cross here may only be superficial: it rather appears to be some sort of spiked bulb type of shape.

RE: The cross, again - -JKP- - 29-06-2017

(29-06-2017, 12:06 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another element which has been referred to as a  potential cross appears on f You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., although it can easily be argued that the resemblance with a cross here may only be superficial: it rather appears to be some sort of spiked bulb type of shape.


I've always assumed it was a finial, since these structures have a canopy/tent-like look to them. Nothing is certain in the VMS and some things appear to have double meanings, but they are pretty consistent in both shape and placement with finials.