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+--- Thread: The presence of FIVE (/thread-1956.html)
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The presence of FIVE - R. Sale - 18-06-2017
So, here are some things that relate to the number 'five' or occur in fives. Perhaps there are other examples.
As I have already mentioned, it is position 5, in the seventeen symbol sequence, where there is a certain glyph with three relevant, medieval interpretations.
In position six is a glyph that has been interpreted as a quincunx. This is a symbol found in astrology, used to designate the house that is *fifth* from the primary house - the natal house in astrology, but in the traditional Zodiac, the fifth house is Leo. However, in the VMs, because the VMs has Pisces first, the fifth house is Cancer. Let's look at Cancer.
Two things about VMs Cancer:
1) It has an example of "Stolfi's marker". This is the short, patterned space in the circular band of text. Middle ring, nine o'clock, as I recall. And there are only two other such examples in the VMs Zodiac - both on White Aries.
2) The image of the central medallion is a pair. And as a pair, it is the *fifth* house in a series where the central medallion is either paired internally or duplicated externally to make a pair. Five pairings in sequence, and more within this set if other factors are considered. And more pairings besides, on the same Zodiac pages.
Back with the 17 symbol sequence, two of the potential interpretations of Symbol 5 were numerical and one was from the Greek alphabet. But the Greek symbols are also potentially numerals. The same symbols occur in sequence with an interesting exception. Three additional symbols were added as numerals. The first of these is the insertion of the old letter 'digamma' as the number '6'. The Greek alphabetic sequence and numerical sequence only match for the first *five* symbols.
So there is nothing here that can't be plainly seen or easily known. Does it potentially all tie together? That is the question. Certainly this sort of suggestive thinking was common in the medieval period. And whether the author was such a person or not, s/he still may have known and used such method.
RE: The presence of FIVE - R. Sale - 22-06-2017
Nothing like a serious, manuscript-based topic to get a good conversation going. It's probably something the tarot researchers figure goes without saying, but I found it interesting. As it turns out, card number 'V' in the Major Arcana happens to be called 'The Hierophant' and frequently is also called 'The Pope'. Some illustrations have a pair of keys in silver and gold, etc. Good thing there's no 'pape' to be found in the VMs.
Let's try to keep it quiet. Don't want to encourage any more rampant speculation based on standard and traditional interpretations of medieval information.
RE: The presence of FIVE - Vonologia - 22-06-2017
(22-06-2017, 12:17 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nothing like a serious, manuscript-based topic to get a good conversation going. It's probably something the tarot researchers figure goes without saying, but I found it interesting. As it turns out, card number 'V' in the Major Arcana happens to be called 'The Hierophant' and frequently is also called 'The Pope'. Some illustrations have a pair of keys in silver and gold, etc. Good thing there's no 'pape' to be found in the VMs.
Let's try to keep it quiet. Don't want to encourage any more rampant speculation based on standard and traditional interpretations of medieval information.
Wheel 3.
How many right of the "tables" which I believe are EVA-x?
Are you speaking about EVA-169 (looks like an 'I Love LA' logo), EVA-170 (looks like a swimmer), or EVA-172 the bad "y?"
How many of the glyphs on Wheel (3) 17*4 are known or proven signs of medicine, the zodiac, or other arcana?
I believe the "2nd key" is the "date" if this is so.
It is the only orderly component on the entire wheel.
Just can't come close to proving that yet, but a user could theoretically choose from 4 alternatives of the same glyph.
That would be useful.
RE: The presence of FIVE - R. Sale - 22-06-2017
It's VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on the circular band generally known as the 4 x 17 symbol sequence. So, hopefully, yes - that's the sequence. And clearly there are various interpretations of the different symbols or glyphs. There are various examples where a particular symbol in the VMs sequence may appear similar in form to a letter or numeral or other sign from a known, cultural system. And as always there are potential differences of interpretation and questions as to which interpretations might be valid based on the visual aspects of the symbols.
A second type of interpretation exists in the 17 symbol sequence. It requires that two symbols from the VMs sequence match two symbols from a known cultural system, like the Greek alphabet, in their visual appearance - and in their placement, their location relative to each other. And in the VMs sequence, the symbols 1 and 5 have comparable form and placement with the Greek symbols omicron and lambda. The visual aspects of subjective interpretation have been given positional confirmation by their objective placement in the sequence. It's something that needs to be built into the drawing's construction that is beyond similar appearance.
There are two other positional confirmations of interpretation that are numerical. Three separate interpretations of the second type, all involving the fifth symbol of the VMs sequence.
Along with the sixth symbol from the VMs, interpreted as a quincunx, I am looking at another example where the first five houses of the VMs Zodiac have the subject of their medallion somehow paired in some way. And the fifth house in this sequence is Cancer, because the VMs Zodiac starts with Pisces, which happens to be a natural pair. Simple pairing is a pattern strongly provided in the Pisces and Aries pages of the VMs, all the way to the armorial pairing of the Fieschi insignia on f71r.
So I am curious if others might have examples where 'five' was a factor in some VMs investigation. Do the comparative differences between the Greek alphabet and the Greek numerical system, particularly the 'insertion at place six', have anything to do with the quincunx in the VMs system? Is this a reference to the the fifth house intentional?
And now, in the traditional interpretation of Tarot, number five introduces the hierophant or pope, you know, the one who started the tradition with that hat.
Further investigation of other interpretations of symbols in the sequence is a good idea that could be discussed in another thread. I'm sure there are some things there that I don't know.
RE: The presence of FIVE - -JKP- - 23-06-2017
(22-06-2017, 10:51 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
A second type of interpretation exists in the 17 symbol sequence. It requires that two symbols from the VMs sequence match two symbols from a known cultural system, like the Greek alphabet, in their visual appearance - and in their placement, their location relative to each other. And in the VMs sequence, the symbols 1 and 5 have comparable form and placement with the Greek symbols omicron and lambda. The visual aspects of subjective interpretation have been given positional confirmation by their objective placement in the sequence. It's something that needs to be built into the drawing's construction that is beyond similar appearance.
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Greek, yes, we agree on that.
However, I have a different interpretation. I don't think this is 1) omicron, 5) lamda. I think what it resembles, in old-style script, is 1) omicron or omega or zero 2) alpha 3) beta 4) gamma 5) delta—four Greek characters in sequence (in old script, the base of delta was not always drawn or was sometimes incompletely drawn). Whether the first one is omicron, omega, zero, or just plain null (in the cipher sense) is difficult to determine. If I remember correctly, omega was sometimes drawn as an "o" shape on some of the ancient Greek pottery but this was not typical in the middle ages.
Alpha is tipped to one side, but was sometimes drawn like this. Beta was sometimes drawn like this. Gamma sometimes had a tail but never as dramatic as this one, but I suspect that the tail is emphasized to make it look more like Latin, where this glyph occurs frequently. Not sure though.
I haven't been able to equate any of the VMS glyphs to Greek letters in the meaning sense, but I think Greek letters may have inspired some of the VMS glyph forms:
![[Image: GreekLetters.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/GreekLetters.png)
RE: The presence of FIVE - Vonologia - 23-06-2017
How about these three beauties, which are or are not used in the manuscript?
The first one "alkali volatile" or ammonia?
Also could be confused with "fixed stars."
Three past the "swimmer" could be "coagulare" or coagulate.
I am using a "not great" source called Dictionary of Symbols, c1991.
Still looking for a better 14thc Alchemy source.
By the way, I could be testing the "Banned!" Filter by posting these.
I have trouble posting screenshots.
RE: The presence of FIVE - R. Sale - 23-06-2017
If we are comparing the forms of the VMs, then let's try to be as close as possible in that visual aspect, but that is no reason that prevents one symbol from having several interpretations, whether in an ancient form of Greek or perhaps in alchemy - and I wouldn't be able to recognize the symbol in that context. And this is about more than just one symbol with a similar visual appearance. It is about the combination of visual appearance and the specific placement of the particular symbols in question. Having symbols that match in form and then also match in placement with the current cultural usages of the Middle Ages, has to be something that should cause a bit of curiosity. If it is an intentional construction, does it have meaning.
The one thing about the 'old form' Greek interpretation is that, in order to be intentionally constructed, the creator of the this symbol sequence would need to have been a knowing scholar of that information.
I see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as one of two VMs hot spots where intentional construction lies just below the surface. What it takes is the recognition of similar appearance according to some cultural system, followed by sufficient investigation to discover that this interpretation is supported by objective evidence based on relevant location. It works here and it works on VMs White Aries.
So, whether the VMs symbol in position 5 is interpreted as lambda or delta; or it is the medieval numeral '7'; or an inverted version of the Roman numeral 'V'; it's not a question of which one is right. The situation is one in which all potential interpretations contribute to the complexity on the construction. Greater complexity more strongly implies that the construction is intentional. And the purpose of the investigation is to discover whether the reason for this form of intentional construction is to establish a level of communication. And because this is the VMs, communication is built on the standard interpretations of traditional information that have been surreptitiously included in these complex constructions.
Visual appearance is always a potential source of deception. What the VMs may require is the combination of visual appearance and positional confirmation.
RE: The presence of FIVE - -JKP- - 24-06-2017
(23-06-2017, 04:17 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How about these three beauties, which are or are not used in the manuscript?
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I've looked extensively at alchemical symbols and I've never seen that first one in any ancient or medieval text. The second one occasionally shows up with a tick mark rather than a dot.
Was there a source listed for the first one? Is it possible that the VMS was the inspiration for the symbol (many have referred to it as an alchemical text)?
RE: The presence of FIVE - Vonologia - 24-06-2017
(24-06-2017, 12:18 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(23-06-2017, 04:17 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How about these three beauties, which are or are not used in the manuscript?
...
I've looked extensively at alchemical symbols and I've never seen that first one in any ancient or medieval text. The second one occasionally shows up with a tick mark rather than a dot.
Was there a source listed for the first one? Is it possible that the VMS was the inspiration for the symbol (many have referred to it as an alchemical text)?
These three were created in Illustrator. The "difference" that you are seeing is actually nothing more than "rounded caps" as opposed to "square caps" or "extended caps," which are the ways used to digitize analog symbols. The alternative is the "crude" Auto-Trace many use to make typefaces. There was no intent to deceive or demean the original intention of the symbol. As an artist, the work is about "take something, make something." The actual initial symbol in the VM f57v, I think, has the "9" superscript instead of a circle, which I changed today. I'm just trying to figure out if the "FIVE" is one of these or the "Y" or "5" that was conceivably added later at the bottom right of the page of f57v.
RE: The presence of FIVE - -JKP- - 24-06-2017
I know how to create them, what I was wondering is if you saw that first symbol in one of the alchemical manuscripts.
I'm confused.
You mentioned it might be '"alkali volatile" or ammonia'. How did you come to that possibility? Is that an actual symbol in a medieval source other than the VMS?