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+--- Thread: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! (/thread-1879.html)
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - davidjackson - 15-06-2017
I spent a summer once making volvelles out of the VM. It was fun but eventually fruitless work.
Actually, I couldn't be bothered before to go into this, but since the topic has risen its head again I may as well.
It is quite easy to prove that the VM is not the product of an Alberti cipher ( or other polyalphabetic cipher).
In essence, this is because such ciphers create pseudo random cover text - they mask the frequency distribution of the plaintext.
But the VM corpus doesn't exhibit that characteristic. Quite the opposite. Instead, glyphs are highly positionally aware within vords.
Ergo, it is not the result of an Alberti cipher. Or if it were, it would quickly succumb to frequency analysis, which it doesn't.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Vonologia - 15-06-2017
(15-06-2017, 09:53 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I spent a summer once making volvelles out of the VM. It was fun but eventually fruitless work.Only if there was a direct glyph to glyph translation? If one glyph meant two or three or five, would frequency distribution still apply? Also, apologies for not differentiating between "code" and "cipher." Meant one in the same, but in the field of cryptography, they are different.
Actually, I couldn't be bothered before to go into this, but since the topic has risen its head again I may as well.
It is quite easy to prove that the VM is not the product of an Alberti cipher ( or other polyalphabetic cipher).
In essence, this is because such ciphers create pseudo random cover text - they mask the frequency distribution of the plaintext.
But the VM corpus doesn't exhibit that characteristic. Quite the opposite. Instead, glyphs are highly positionally aware within vords.
Ergo, it is not the result of an Alberti cipher. Or if it were, it would quickly succumb to frequency analysis, which it doesn't.
The volvelle angle is interesting. Like.
Ever seen any VM correlation to the House of Visconti? (not with Voyvelles)
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - davidjackson - 16-06-2017
A polyalphabetic cipher encodes one to many. So plaintext A could be encoded as b,j,l or m. For example.
Hence, frequency distribution is pseudorandom in the cover text, and no, frequency distribution would not apply.
The VM almost -but not really- acts as if it were a simple Caeser cipher, because at first glance you could almost assume there was a glyph to glyph correspondence. Because glyphs are positionally aware. But when you examine the text, it doesn't yield to any known language. And with the corpus that we have, someone would have spotted something by now.
Have a quick search for Visconti, The subject has been mentioned a few times. Or start a new thread if you have a new angle.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Davidsch - 16-06-2017
(15-06-2017, 09:53 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
It is quite easy to prove that the VM is not the product of an Alberti cipher ( or other polyalphabetic cipher).
In essence, this is because such ciphers create pseudo random cover text - they mask the frequency distribution of the plaintext.
But the VM corpus doesn't exhibit that characteristic. Quite the opposite. Instead, glyphs are highly positionally aware within vords.
..
If the cipher disk is applied to the entire text you are right, but here are some other possibilities where the ciphered text will show analogies with the VMS text:
For example:
- If there are multiple keys in the text.
- There are one or more nulls.
- The used clear text alphabet is very small.
- The used clear text alphabet contains duplicate letters.
- any combination of the above
Finally the number of possibilities were above 10.000 and although the results were stored, I did not find the time yet to go through the results.
However the automated CHi-squared tests applied showed there are possible candidates, personally I do not believe this will result in anything and honestly I did not even look at the results anymore because of that.
Note that this does not rule out a poly-alphabetical cipher. If the VMS text is super-ciphered that is still possible.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Vonologia - 16-06-2017
(16-06-2017, 06:00 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A polyalphabetic cipher encodes one to many. So plaintext A could be encoded as b,j,l or m. For example.
Hence, frequency distribution is pseudorandom in the cover text, and no, frequency distribution would not apply.
The VM almost -but not really- acts as if it were a simple Caeser cipher, because at first glance you could almost assume there was a glyph to glyph correspondence. Because glyphs are positionally aware. But when you examine the text, it doesn't yield to any known language. And with the corpus that we have, someone would have spotted something by now.
Have a quick search for Visconti, The subject has been mentioned a few times. Or start a new thread if you have a new angle.
Not willing to discount, for sure. But then you wouldn't need a wheel. ; )
Alberti ciphers are actually overly simplistic as described today. Letter for letter. But if someone had already created a more complex method of code, you can be sure that certain powers would provide the simplistic set to the world, if at all.
The glyphs are scrambled (most agree) into code/cipher (most agree) and it is not likely 1 to 1 (nobody knows). But if there is a code/cipher, it could be more complex or related to and better technology than an Alberti cipher. Yes?
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - R. Sale - 16-06-2017
I see you are well into the potential mechanics - very interesting. I have been interested in the possible interpretation of certain symbols in the 4 by 17 symbol sequence. There are interpretations based on various well-known symbols in traditional numerical an alphabetic systems in standard use in the medieval period. And going beyond appearance, there is also a physical, positional confirmation of the visual appearance for three different interpretations of the fifth symbol in the sequence.
VMs symbols 2 and 5 appear similar to the medieval numbers '4' and '7' - and have the same distance between.
VMs symbols 1 and 5 appear similar to Greek letters 'omicron' and 'lambda' - and have the same distance between.
VMs symbol 5 has the form of a Roman numeral 'V' inverted - and it is in the fifth place in the sequence.
Interpretation is one thing, but placement, positional confirmation, needs to be built into the sequence intentionally.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - davidjackson - 16-06-2017
Not sure if I follow you.
An Alberti cipher is always one to many - it masks frequency distribution. It's polyalphabetic.
Quote:Alberti cipher using codephrase "elephant":
the sun was very hot today becomes SFAQU LCQVB QYBMS RKAEY
"t" can be "s" or "r"; "h" can be "f" or "b"; etc.
There is no frequency distribution.
If it's monoalphabetic, it's a Caser shift cipher. But then frequency distribution exists.
Quote:Caser shift -2:
the sun was very hot today becomes rfc qsl uyq tcpw fmr rmbyw
And we can see that "t" is always "r"; "h" is always "f"; "e" is always "c", etc. The frequency distribution of the letters is identical (r appears the same numbers of times as t, h as f, etc).
You say:
Quote:But if there is a code/cipher, it could be more complex or related to and better technology than an Alberti cipher. Yes?
Difficult. Why? Because improved ciphers require mathematical knowledge that simply wasn't available at the time the manuscript was assumed to have been written. And anyway, the majority of similar ciphers are based upon the same principles as the Alberti and Vignieré ciphers.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 16-06-2017
Keep in mind that all pre-modern ciphertexts are several orders of magnitude smaller than the VM. The large ones are the length of a note, a paragraph....
The VM is an entire MS, hundreds of pages. The more complex your proposed cipher becomes, the less likely it has been used to encode and decode this text.
Additionally, there are indications that the VM is similar to manuscripts that were carried around by professionals. Quick reference stuff, not desk-cipherdisk-takes-two-hours-to-read-a-sentence stuff...
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Vonologia - 16-06-2017
(16-06-2017, 11:32 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Keep in mind that all pre-modern ciphertexts are several orders of magnitude smaller than the VM. The large ones are the length of a note, a paragraph....
The VM is an entire MS, hundreds of pages. The more complex your proposed cipher becomes, the less likely it has been used to encode and decode this text.
Additionally, there are indications that the VM is similar to manuscripts that were carried around by professionals. Quick reference stuff, not desk-cipherdisk-takes-two-hours-to-read-a-sentence stuff...
What if each "paragraph" is it's own entire encoded message and the VMS is just a collection of messages over time?
Smaller, harder to crack, and each unique.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 16-06-2017
(16-06-2017, 11:47 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What if each "paragraph" is it's own entire encoded message and the VMS is just a collection of messages over time?
Smaller, harder to crack, and each unique.
Well, I suppose many things are possible, but it doesn't feel that way. Even though it's a collection of different subjects, it has very much the feel of something done with an overall plan, and the paragraphs don't look like they were laid down at different times. It looks more like a page or two or three were done at the same time, based on ink color/density, writing style, etc.