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+--- Thread: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! (/thread-1879.html)
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 17-05-2017
Take something extremely simple, like the fact that gallows favor word-initial position, or word-initial preceded by "o". Or that y so often seeks the end of words. Or that "a" avoids the end of words. And so on and so on. A substitution cipher does not explain this, and the more randomness you add, the harder it will become.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 17-05-2017
(17-05-2017, 08:01 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Take something extremely simple, like the fact that gallows favor word-initial position, or word-initial preceded by "o". Or that y so often seeks the end of words. Or that "a" avoids the end of words. And so on and so on. A substitution cipher does not explain this, and the more randomness you add, the harder it will become.
I'm not referring to a simple substitution cipher. I believe the alberti cipher which I feel is used for the VMS is a hybrid where short VMS vords, glyphs and numbers are set in positions and relate to a formula on four rings. Furthermore, it could be the symbols and vords could be on opposing rings (meaning the 1st inner ring is all vms single letters) 2nd ring Latin Letters, 3rd ring vms short vords which are builders to add to the VMS letters on the inner ring and lastly the outer ring all numbers 0-9 which are random in configuration and the total for all the disk relationships with VMS glyph's, Latin letters, short vms vords and numbers total 128. In fact I speculate that 36 is the number used for all rings regarding each VMS glyph, Latin letter, short vms vords and lastly the 36 numbers on the very outer VMS disk f57v. A sort of mechanism where the inner ring is fixed and the VMS letters are randomly placed like the third is fixed and short vms vords are randomly placed. The 2nd and 4th rings turn with random Latin letters and numbers set by a shift, increment and period feature. Is this Helpful, I have been bouncing this around in my head for a couple of days now in and out of sleep, but I'm spilling the beans.
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A monoalphabetic cipher uses fixed substitution over the entire message, whereas a polyalphabetic cipher uses a number of substitutions at different positions in the message, where a unit from the plaintext is mapped to one of several possibilities in the ciphertext and vice versa.
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - R. Sale - 17-05-2017
So, it's heraldry - again. And if one is familiar with the basic patterns of heraldry, the ordinaries and sub-ordinaries, and then looks at the tub patterns on the Pisces and Aries pages of the VMs, one may see certain similarities. A pattern of alternating vertical stripes is like a paly; horizontal stripes are like a barry, diagonal stripes are like a bendy or bendy sinister. Of course, nobody has a monopoly on striped patterns, so the similarities are just general. But Pisces also has a pattern with chevrons, a pattern with little circles like a semy of roundels, and a pattern with scales like papelonny - although papelonny is a fur, one of the heraldic tinctures, and not an ordinary or sub-ordinary like the others. This second set of patterns seems to be even more exclusive to heraldry than the striped patterns listed first.
After examining the three pages of tub patterns, one might ask whether these really are valid heraldic patterns and whether it is possible to establish any historical connection. Heraldic armorial insignia are a combination of pattern and color (tincture). And changing either one results in a change of identification. The requirement for color and pattern pretty much limits the investigation to VMs White Aries (f71r). An all blue shield can be attributed to Berrington of Chester, but are the VMs examples attributions or just blue tubs?
Two tub patterns on White Aries have been painted to indicate a pattern of alternating blue stripes. In the attempt to define these patterns, it is natural to see them in relation to their radial orientation, as with all the others. This in turn determines the direction of the stripes and defines the patterns. The search for historical matches is not rewarding. However, if all radial influences are removed and the two striped patterns are viewed in relation to the horizontal and vertical directions of the page itself, then something else appears. The orientation of the stripes is changed. Both patterns now approximate the diagonal pattern of a bendy. This is where the reader's knowledge of historical heraldry either kicks in - or -much more likely - it does not. Notice that the associated character in the inner ring is wearing a certain type of hat. Does the reader know know the heraldic armorial insignia of the pope who originated the Roman Catholic tradition of the cardinal''s red galero? That pope was Innocent IV. Innocent IV was Sinibaldo Fieschi. The Fieschi insignia is bendy, argent et azur. Additionally in 1251 CE, Pope Innocent IV made his nephew, Ottobuono Fieschi a cardinal. This is what the White Aries illustration shows. Ottobuono was later elected pope as Adrian V, but died before taking his office.
The Fieschi coat-of-arms is historically genuine, not one of those that were back-filled when all popes were given armorial insignia in the 1700s.
As soon as we have the tentative identification of pope and cardinal situated in a sort of cosmic diagram, it is clear that they have been placed in their proper hierarchical positions, with the pope in a higher celestial sphere than the cardinal. Location is an objective fact that helps to confirm the subjective interpretation of appearance. Placement in the favored location of the heraldic upper right of the illustration is an objective confirmation. The association with White Aries, the only animal in a zodiac medallion suitable for celestial sacrifice, is another objective confirmation. Then there is the papelonny placement and confirmation through heraldic canting and it is a pairing.
Going back to the original matter of orientation - radial versus page-based, it is clear that both interpretations exist together as a sort of optical illusion, where the radial interpretation with no historical connections tends to visually dominate the page-based interpretation with its strong historical representation. This is a clear indicator of intentional obfuscation, disguise and deception. The images are not drawn to make the identification as clear as possible, yet they still maintain the essential elements of pattern and tincture. The two tub patterns show both ink patterns and paint coloration. However heraldry does not allow for the combined use of different methods of tincture designation. It's one or the other. One that is essentially meaningless or one with a connection to the origins of ecclesiastical, heraldic tradition. It is the reader's option to make - or to fail to make - this significant, traditional interpretation.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 20-05-2017
o_p_a_l_d_a_ii_n
What is modular arithmetic?
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pēlicātus
noun
the relation of a mistress
Dear Ninjas,
I found a way into the Voynich text bypassing my alberti cipher. Here is a brief explanation minus the equation and formulas which allowed me to obtain this rare low frequency word. I also found, "Lexis" which means (a word in Latin). The equations and formulas are in my book due out tomorrow at create-space, I made an intense edit. This is not a 1-1 cipher and it relies on Mod 24 Math.
Lexis = 8aiy9
Modular 24 Arithmetic Cipher to decode the Voynich 1 (Vord)
The numerator is the (word length of glyphs’) and the denominator is the (mod); which starts off by using the first letter found of the Voynich word. Then using a number line by adding and subtracting glyphs’ with assigned numbers to glphs’; ([font=Voynich]p[/font]) equals 15 for letter, “P”, of the Latin alphabet. A letter, “P” was found from the numbers on the number line by adding and subtracting.
The numerator never increments, but the denominator does by 1 each time. This allows the decoder to obtain other letters in the Voynich word through abstract math; yet the numbers of the abstract math correlate to the numerator (word length) and denominator (Mod) for the equation.
A is the dividend
B is the divisor
Q is the quotient
R is the remainder
Sometimes, we are only interested in what the remainder is when we divide A by B.
For these cases there is an operator called the modulo operator (abbreviated as mod).
Using the same A, B, Q, and R as above, we would have: A mod B=R
ABCDEFGHIKLMNOPQRSTUVXYZ
o_p_a_l_d_a_ii_n
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 23-05-2017
Here it Ninjas,
House of Este on site fountains everything enjoy!
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 31-05-2017
Another important piece of text:
Dona enim sunt sicut et alii spiritus nec ex se sed ex unitatis Fidei ad bona opera ex lege pietate autem amorem serve per misericordiam
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Vonologia - 15-06-2017
New here. Believer in the Alberti Cipher pre-Alberti line of thinking. Not a cryptographer or language specialist.
Guessing is guessing, which explains my interest in these forums. Would like to be able to discount obviously wrong assertions others have been able to prove with a summary of evidence.
With respect to f57v, here are some simple ideas for why this might be an Alberti Cipher.
1. There are seven "table" characters; two on Wheel 1, one on Wheel 2 and four on Wheel 3. (inside to outside) By
rotating Wheel 1 to Wheel 2, we have 17 possible glyphs for Latin minus vowels. That would reduce the rotations between Wheel 1 and 2 to two options. If Wheel 1 has 33 glyphs and two "tables" and Wheel 2 has 32 glyphs and one "table" we combine that to 68 glyphs, 17*4.
2. Wheel 4 (outside) could be divided into 51 possible glyphs, again a variable of 17, giving us 51.68.68 (33,35).
3. The "table" characters stand out, but the fact is there are many other options -- examine how many times two like glyphs are 17 glyphs apart, particularly on Wheel 2.
4. In modern times, we talk about breaking Alberti Ciphers by going to a box of Lucky Charms and using a toy. However, if done correctly, every coded message could be a "one-time" key polyalphabetic cipher -- suddenly extremely difficult. Even a tabula recta requires knowledge of the 17 alleged glyphs and the "correct" language.
5. If in cipher, one five letter word used twice with no vowels would offer up to 10 unique glyphs. Same word, different pictures.
6. There are missing pages. If this is in fact code, which pages would you rip out?
7. If this is in fact code, and we imagine a level of sophisticated communication, could we be reading the glyphs
from someone else who has a completely different set of Wheels? One time keys? From France? From Germany?
8. Many have discussed the concept of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. using planets or stars and that the page belongs in the astrology
section of the folio. That is still possible if you consider it would "date" the potential code.
The easiest way to play with this is to copy You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. four times, then cut out the circles and stack them up and stick a push pin in the middle and rotate. Although there are infinite angles on a circle, if this is just a drawing of an actual device, you can understand that one glyph off or a small math error would produce gibberish quickly. Think Antikythera mechanism.
Happy to send pictures of examples, but site bans me each time for spam.
Will try that later.
Anyone seeing the same things? Different?
Thanks.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 15-06-2017
(15-06-2017, 06:08 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
6. There are missing pages. If this is in fact code, which pages would you rip out?
...
The removed and missing pages are somewhat accounted for by the correspondence between the various parties documented on Rene Zandbergen's site.
There are mentions of copied pages (ones that were reproduced so that the document as-it-was-at-the-time remained intact), but there are also hints that a few actual pages may, at some point have been shared with others in the hopes of getting a translation and, if I remember correctly, a "booklet" was mentioned, which could perhaps refer to a missing quire (I need to refresh my memory on this correspondence and can't do so until after work, but Rene may have some thoughts on this).
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 15-06-2017
(15-06-2017, 06:08 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
The easiest way to play with this is to copy You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. four times, then cut out the circles and stack them up and stick a push pin in the middle and rotate. Although there are infinite angles on a circle, if this is just a drawing of an actual device, you can understand that one glyph off or a small math error would produce gibberish quickly. Think Antikythera mechanism.
...
Actually, the easiest way is to take the high-res scan and isolate four wheels on different layers in a graphics program and spin it virtually, which I did long, long ago, but I also made a physical wheel for the simple reason that it was fun to have one. I used a paper clip to hold the center. If you put it in right, it allows the layers to spin but also creates enough pressure on the layers from the flat part of the paper clip that they stay together instead of wanting to separate.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Vonologia - 15-06-2017
(15-06-2017, 08:49 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Currently building an Illustrator file because it's the only way I can get the measurements correct. Have a blank one if you want to try. Have not encoded the glyphs yet because I don't have enough interpretation of the count per wheel. Guessing is still guessing. But those four wheels only need to reduce to two; a plain text version of 17 still in code, but known to the writer (assume 1 and 2), and three or four versions of another 17 (Wheels 3 and 4). The math on Wheels 3 and 4 are clean if you use 51 (Wheel 4) and 68 (Wheel 3; widely accepted with "errors"). Wheels 1 and 2 work well together, but only if you accept the number 17. Wheels 3 and 4 work well together in many more circumstances. Correlating the two working machines together...an additional puzzle. But honestly, if it is so, the encrypter would/might eventually want to read it back...hence the possibility of decryption.(15-06-2017, 06:08 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
The easiest way to play with this is to copy You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. four times, then cut out the circles and stack them up and stick a push pin in the middle and rotate. Although there are infinite angles on a circle, if this is just a drawing of an actual device, you can understand that one glyph off or a small math error would produce gibberish quickly. Think Antikythera mechanism.
...
Actually, the easiest way is to take the high-res scan and isolate four wheels on different layers in a graphics program and spin it virtually, which I did long, long ago, but I also made a physical wheel for the simple reason that it was fun to have one. I used a paper clip to hold the center. If you put it in right, it allows the layers to spin but also creates enough pressure on the layers from the flat part of the paper clip that they stay together instead of wanting to separate.
And lets not forget the two, three or four missing disks between the Wheels. Possible as well.
Another test I want to try is to put/invert f57v in Overlay or Screen mode in Photoshop and load all the other "circles" in VMS.