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+--- Thread: VMS decryption scenarios (/thread-159.html)
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - -JKP- - 03-03-2016
(03-03-2016, 07:32 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-03-2016, 07:00 PM)-JKP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.a smartest animal
And the cruelest one, also.
I won't argue that one... but at least we have a choice.
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - Wladimir D - 08-03-2016
I do not know, whether earlier anybody to publish arguments in support of the following statement. Page numbering is done, when in of the manuscript was an old wooden cover.
The worm has damaged figures 2 and 3.
Upper deep hole passes through the sheets 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7. Page 5 moved.
Who can comment on two writing style "3"? Slash with a horizontal line.
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - Anton - 10-03-2016
(08-03-2016, 02:00 PM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not know, whether earlier anybody to publish arguments in support of the following statement. Page numbering is done, when in of the manuscript was an old wooden cover.
The worm has damaged figures 2 and 3.
Upper deep hole passes through the sheets 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7. Page 5 moved.
Who can comment on two writing style "3"? Slash with a horizontal line.
I think Rene Zandbergen touched the question of the wooden cover earlier this year in Stephen Bax's blog, although I don't remember if he meant these holes or other ones.
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - ReneZ - 10-03-2016
Wladimir's observation is correct. That the MS has been rebound by the Jesuits (i.e. after it was sent to Kircher) is certain from statements by Ruysschaert related to the entire collection in which the Voynich MS was contained (see his 1959 catalogue), and from a statement from someone working in the Vatican library (personal communication) who reported that 90 or 95 percent of the collection acquired from the Jesutis has the same limp vellum cover.
There's another report that a general rebinding was done because many books were infested by woodworms.
The wormholes in the Voynich MS are concentrated in the earliest and last folios, and in remnants of the old paper lining of the textblock that can be seen here:
![[Image: binding.jpg]](http://www.voynich.nu/img/clips/binding.jpg)
The woodworms were there because of an earlier binding in wooden boards. These were covered in tanned leather, and marks of the tanning are still visible on the first and last folio.
These are not my own insights, but statements from experienced MS conservators who inspected the MS in November 2014.
Since the worms ate through the folio numbers, as Wladimir mentions, these must have been written when the MS still had its earlier binding with wooden boards. That makes complete sense, since these numbers were probably added latest around 1600, while the MS was in Prague, but quite possibly before that (my opinion).
The fact that the deep hole in the upper right corner of folios 1-7 does not affect folio 5 is because this folio is clearly smaller in the upper right corner, as seen in the Voyager image of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , where the hole in f6 is visible.
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - crezac - 12-03-2016
(02-03-2016, 09:45 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(02-03-2016, 12:55 PM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is a relationship features of drawings with words that have a repetition of groups of characters "89". The "89" in my interpretation means cell division. I
Cell was discovered in XVII century. Out of question for XV с. or earlier.
Sigh. That's the downside of publishing your results in an unknown language. Someone comes along later and takes all the credit ;-)
(03-03-2016, 01:56 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:Anton. I have repeatedly published his views on the VMS language in Russian forum and Nick. VMS language is irrelevant to modern civilization. Maybe he does not even have phonetic content. Only the written form .
If it's irrelevant to modern civilization, then the chance is even less that anything about cells is found there. To discover the cells' existence, one at least needs a microscope. I don't know any extinct civilization with a microscope in possession.
Or you need to be smart enough to look at sponges and amoebas (there is at least one that is naked eye visible) and make some pretty smart guesses. I'm not saying I think it's likely or that I believe it, but if you're smart enough to program a language into a book it's not an impossibility. And 100 years ago we didn't know of extinct civilizations with access to advanced astrological computers, but there's one that got fished out of the Mediterranean and reverse engineered since then. So even a microscope isn't out of the question.
Consider the Etruscan. In 400 AD educated men in Rome could still read Etruscan literature and their astronomy influenced Roman astronomy to the extent that they replaced portions of their native astronomy with the Etruscan system because it was superior. Today there aren't any Etruscan documents known to exist and even if there were no one would be able to read them. It's not impossible to believe that that is the only instance of a technological civilization being lost through assimilation, even in the same geographic area.
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - Emma May Smith - 12-03-2016
(12-03-2016, 08:48 PM)crezac Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Consider the Etruscan. In 400 AD educated men in Rome could still read Etruscan literature and their astronomy influenced Roman astronomy to the extent that they replaced portions of their native astronomy with the Etruscan system because it was superior. Today there aren't any Etruscan documents known to exist and even if there were no one would be able to read them. It's not impossible to believe that that is the only instance of a technological civilization being lost through assimilation, even in the same geographic area.
There a few Etruscan documents left! The most famous and longest is the Liber Linteus, a book written on folded linen and later used for mummy wrappings (which is why we still have it today). It's most likely a religious calendar, but you're right that we can't read it. Or rather, we can read it--the script is similar to the Roman script--but we can't understand it. A lot of work has been done to figure out the basics of grammar and a few words, but we're still a long way off having a good understanding of the tongue.
One of the great figures in working out the Etruscan language was Massimo Pallottino, a hero of mine. His combinatorial method is something that should be studied by every Voynich researcher.
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - Anton - 12-03-2016
There is nothing impossible in the world, the matter is that of the probability.
As I said above (or, rather, as Ockham said a bit earlier), entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity. Is there the real necessity for the VMS to contain the notion of a cell and cell division? Why cell division, to begin with?
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - crezac - 12-03-2016
(12-03-2016, 11:06 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is nothing impossible in the world, the matter is that of the probability.
As I said above (or, rather, as Ockham said a bit earlier), entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity. Is there the real necessity for the VMS to contain the notion of a cell and cell division? Why cell division, to begin with?
What Occam said applied to theories and assumptions. I think for purposes of our discussion we can allow that the assumption that if you write a book it contains information is the assumption that multiplies the fewest entities. Occam doesn't really apply to the contents though. The probability of a book having any specific content is irrelevant once you've determined the actual content. This being the case the probability of a book having any specific content is irrelevant before you have determined the content as well. The content doesn't change just because your understanding of it changes. VMS has no requirement to have any particular content at all. If someone can make a case for cell division I'm willing to consider it. It's really a long way from being the craziest interpretation of VMS I've heard, "Atlantis anyone?".
All that said though, at this point I'm only willing to consider the possibility. I may revise that when I get a better grip on generation rules, prefixes, suffixes, just how many assumptions are necessary to get any semantics and any additional methodology used.
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - Anton - 13-03-2016
Quote:This being the case the probability of a book having any specific content is irrelevant before you have determined the content as well.
The probability of a book having any specific content is by no means irrelevant. It is relevant to the success of the search of the said content in the book.
There are infinite possibilities with close to zero probability. I'm not willing to consider guesses thrown in with zero substantiation.
RE: VMS decryption scenarios - crezac - 13-03-2016
(13-03-2016, 01:14 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:This being the case the probability of a book having any specific content is irrelevant before you have determined the content as well.
The probability of a book having any specific content is by no means irrelevant. It is relevant to the success of the search of the said content in the book.
It is. The relevant factor is how close your assumption of the possible content matches the actual contents. Occam's Razor applies because you can control your assumptions. You do not control the actual content. Sloppy thinking gets you nowhere you really want to be.
Say you and a friend are sitting at the side of the road late one morning listening to approaching hoof beats. He's visiting from Montana but you've lived in the area all your life; Austin, TX. He says the hoof beats are horses, you tell him it's 5 zebra and 2 camels. His assumption of horses is the best explanation requiring the fewest assumption since his assumption is that, as it is in Montana, horses are more common in Texas than zebra or camels. He's right about his assumptions, but wrong about the horses. When a man and his wife pass by riding camels and herding five zebra, you explain that them more relevant assumption was that your neighbors were taking their herd out for a run like they do every day at noon. If you're going to shave with Oscar's razor you're going to nick yourself sometimes. But if you don't know how to use it you're just as likely to cut your throat.
As for why I'm willing to consider cell division let's unpack a bit. An understanding of the process of cell divsion or some of its outputs doesn't require an understanding of cells, or even that you have the concept. It requires that you are aware of and attempt to explain things like growth and healing - and I'm not going new age on you - that's just what cell division is. I'm not critiquing the methodology behind this approach because I haven't taken the time yet to review all the background material. If I do decide the approach seems untenable it will likely not be because of a word choice in translating a concept. I addressed your objection to cells not because I really believe this approach will work, but because it's more interesting than another substitution cipher. I didn't find your objection to cells to be decisive; honestly it seemed like nit-picking. Push over the apple cart if the apples are all rotten. But if you see a single apple that might be bad, look closer. The apple might be fine, the apple might be wormy but not inherently bad, or the apples might all be bad.
I think you believe you have the guy backed into a corner and are kicking his legs out from under him. My perception is that he's a kid rolling his hoop down the road. You've thrown a rock at his hoop but it's not going to hit so he doesn't even bother to bat it away. He might hit a rock in the road, hit the hoop too hard with his stick or get run over by a truck and end up with a broken hoop. It might fall over and he won't be able to get it rolling again. He might even get it to the end of the road. But as long as the hoop isn't obviously busted and he's not trying to drag it down the road rather than roll it, let the kid play.