+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Theories & Solutions (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-58.html)
+--- Thread: Why and how the text could be Bavarian (/thread-5312.html)
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 26-02-2026
Thank you, Stolfi, for your detailed and constructive feedback. You raise several valid points—the separation of the VMS sections, more careful filtering of labels, normalization of Hw for the sample size, and the question of p and f. All of these are improvements that make sense.
But I would like to point out that entropy analysis is really not my main area of expertise—I simply wanted to show that Bavarian is well suited as the basis for a possible absorption cipher to approximate Voynicheese.
So this was intended as a first rough comparison to see if the numbers were roughly correct, not as definitive statistical proof.
The fact that you describe the Hw result as a “match” is actually quite encouraging for my hypothesis.
As far as “unencrypted European natural language” is concerned
As I said, I'm not yet convinced by the Chinese theory, but if more evidence emerges, I may have to abandon my Bavarian theory with a smile and a tear in my eye. Until then, I'll continue a little further. Purely based on gut feeling, Bairish simply fits much better into the context of the VMS – but feeling is no proof.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 28-02-2026
4. First steps towards a solution
I have now expanded the cipher – basically, I have structured it according to frequency in the original Bavarian comparison texts. A lot of tests prove that this is the form that best matches the frequency of the letters and the cipher.
The amazing thing is that the many tests I have now carried out tend to support the system rather than destroy it. This is a good indication, even if it is not proof.
A very impressive example is the EVA ‘s’, which is my search term ‘und’ (and) – one of the most common words in German.
s standing alone: 302×, at the beginning: 908×, at the end: 825×
Total s: 5.87% vs MHD and/vnd: 5.9% — almost identical
201 of 281 (72%) s-initial words also exist without s in the VMS
Result: s = and
I think it's a Brevigraph
The problem remains that the cipher leaves too many possibilities open; what I am now showing is only one of many possibilities. In addition, we still do not know the exact underlying dialect. That will be a lot of work.
Nevertheless, individual words can be recognised (bold) and a sentence structure that makes sense.
So this is what the first deciphered text (Bavarian Theorie) of the VMS looks like:
CHIFFRE
=======
ch = n/m
e = e/i
y = e / y
d = s/z/tz/ss/ß
o = o/u
a = a/o
l = l (oder r?)
r = r (oder l?)
sh = s/sch/ch
tsh = tsch
ee = eu/au/ou/ui
ai = ai/ei
t = t/d
k = w
p = f/v
f = ?
cth = b
ckh = g
cph = h
cfh = f?
o- = Artikel
qo- = Präp+Art
y- = ge/ver/be/zer
s = und
aiin/ain = en/ain/ein
m=? (here m)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ====
L1 tsholdchy qotchy opchear ypchedy
tscholsne in die tne (tinne) die fnear und gefnese
L2 dcheodaiin ckheody ckhody chody
sneosen (schnäuzen) geose gose nutze
L3 ydchody ckhey oty ckheodar qoky
gesnose gee ote geosar in die we
L4 daiinces okol cheody ckhy cheeey
sence und die wol (wohl) neose ge neuee
L5 tcheody qodaiin okeey qockhey taiin
tneose von dem sein die weue in die gee den
L6 ycho daiin chokaiin ykchodaiin ykald
verno sein nowen gegossen gewals und
L7 ychos ar eeckhy kcho qokchy qotal
geno und ar euge (auge) wno in die wne von dem tal
L8 oshol odaiin ckhey ckheody qokey otydy
die schol (soll) das sein gee geose von dem wee (schmerz) die tese und
L9 tol daiin daim qchodal dal qody qoetam
tol sein sam und von dem nosal sal und in die se in die etam
L10 ykchol dor shey qokeol kchey shol okam
gegol sor sey von dem weol wnee schol (soll) die wam
L11 tchodaiinoeody qokol oteodaiin kol otag
tnosenoeose und von dem wol (wohl) die teosen und wol die tag
L12 yoees ckheey kol cheeal okeor qockhey pchodal
geoeu und geue wol maual die weor in die gee fnosal und
L13 oaiin ckhol ykieol otchey cpheo daiin ykeoldy
ein gol gewieol die tnee heo sein geweolse und
L14 daiiithy qodaiin kaiiidal cphodal s al dam
senithe von dem sein wensal und hosal(hose?) und al sam und
L15 qokol cheor ckhal s or aldy otal
von dem wol neor gal und or (oder) alse die tal
a good starting point...
Addendum, I forgot to mention: What becomes clear is that the structure of the sentences, articles, conjunctions and prepositions shows that VMS can actually represent a real language with this code....
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 28-02-2026
Here it is in English for better understanding, and then with additional options that you wouldn't otherwise see if you don't speak German.
L1 tsholdchy qotchy opchear ypchedy
tscholsne (keyflower?) into the tinne (vessel) the fnear and gefnese
L2 dcheodaiin ckheody ckhody chody
sneosen (blow nose) geose gose nutze (apply)
L3 ydchody ckhey oty ckheodar qoky
gesnose (blown out) gee ote geosar into the we
L4 daiinces okol cheody ckhy cheeey
sence and the wol (well, probably) neose ge neuee
L5 tcheody qodaiin okeey qockhey taiin
tneose of the sein (his/its | be) the weue into the gee the
L6 ycho daiin chokaiin ykchodaiin ykald
verno sein (his/its | be) nowen gegossen (poured) gewaltz (rolled/kneaded) and
L7 ychos ar eeckhy kcho qokchy qotal
geno and ar euge (eye) wno into the wne of the tal (part)
L8 oshol odaiin ckhey ckheody qokey otydy
the schol (shall) the sein (his/its | be) gee geose of the wee (pain) the tese and
L9 tol daiin daim qchodal dal qody qoetam
tol sein (his/its | be) sam (together?) and of the nosal sal and into the se into the etam
L10 ykchol dor shey qokeol kchey shol okam
gegol sor (sour) sey (be | sei) of the weol wnee schol (shall) the wam
L11 tchodaiinoeody qokol oteodaiin kol otag
tnosenoeose and of the wol (well) the teosen and (wol, probably) the tag (day)
L12 yoees ckheey kol cheeal okeor qockhey pchodal
geoeu and geue wol (well) neual the weor into the gee fnosal and
L13 oaiin ckhol ykieol otchey cpheo daiin ykeoldy
ein (a/one) gol gewieol the tnee heo sein (his/its | be) geweolse and
L14 daiiithy qodaiin kaiiidal cphodal s al dam
senithe of the sein (his/its | be) wensal and hosal and al sam (all together) and
L15 qokol cheor ckhal s or aldy otal
of the wol (well) neor gal and or (or) alse (also) the tal (part)
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 28-02-2026
Exciting, I'm currently testing a new page, and logically I'm now at 52r.
The first word “tdokchcfhy” is another hapax, and we'll leave out the t again, probably a ‘t’ = “der die das” remains dokchcfhy = tzownpfe = Zaun Pfeffer = fence pepper
There is a plant called "fence garlic", which tastes like garlic and whose seeds taste like pepper. It was the poor man's pepper. It was probably also called fence pepper. Today we know it as “garlic mustard.”
And indeed, the plant has a lot of similarities. The small flowers, the slightly frayed leaves, and rhizomes.
So can we identify the plants with this cipher? Really?
And in the deciphered text, oil, vinegar (sour), and seeds seem (!) to appear, which are exactly the ingredients and instructions you would expect for a garlic mustard recipe...
I think I'll translate several texts over the next few weeks and look for more plants... I'll get back to you when I have more reliable results....
It's strange, could the VMS be so easy to solve? I still have my doubts...
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - DG97EEB - 28-02-2026
Hey JoJo,
When I look at the translation, there seems to be some wiggle room in the mappings. Have you tried doing a robust 1:1 mapping and then running it across the folio? That would really strengthen the results..
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - nablator - 28-02-2026
(28-02-2026, 10:22 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Have you tried doing a robust 1:1 mapping
That's not how the game is played. You're allowed to cheat in every way possible.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 28-02-2026
(28-02-2026, 10:26 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(28-02-2026, 10:22 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Have you tried doing a robust 1:1 mapping
That's not how the game is played. You're allowed to cheat in every way possible.
Unfortunately true, but that's exactly what I described from the beginning. Of course, the code could be like that, but then it wouldn't be my fault
Still, strange coincidences...
(28-02-2026, 10:22 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hey JoJo,
When I look at the translation, there seems to be some wiggle room in the mappings. Have you tried doing a robust 1:1 mapping and then running it across the folio? That would really strengthen the results..
Unfortunately, the code isn't that simple...there are many variations.
But the code is described in detail—in all its variants! There are no other variants beyond these.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 14-03-2026
So, after two weeks’ holiday spent searching for sunshine – which meant there was plenty of sun here in Germany, whereas where I went, Portugal, there was no sun, just rain...
well, let’s get back to the Bavarian idea. I have tried to translate a sentence; to do so, I’ve chosen one that already contains many of the possible translations of the words I’ve found in other context. I would like to point out that this is, of course, still much Eisegesis at the moment. But it is also intended to check whether one can actually form reasonably meaningful sentences from the cipher presented here and the VMS.
Please bear with me, as it is, of course, still very rough. The actual work of identifying more and more words that gradually make sense in various sentences will take years. But I’ll simply write my progress – and also my setbacks – here; as I’ve already said, this thread is a work in progress...
Possible translations using my cipher that I have come across in other contexts so far
sar=sauer (sour)
or/ar = er (he / one)
aiin=ein (a)
shol=soll
okain=der Wein(o=articel the vine)
dal=sal(be) (salve)
dy=sy / sein (be)
EVA You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 9: sar or aiin chor or shkair shol or chckhy ar aiin okain dal dy
new found possible words:
shkair=swair/ schwer (dickflüssig) (heavy/strong,(thick))
chckhy=mege = menge (mix/stir) (ckh= g / ng)
chor=mor / mache (make)
Bavarian: sar er ein mor er schwer soll er menge er ein den Wein sal sy
sauer er ein / mache er schwer / soll er menge er ein den Wein / salbe sy
It ist difficult, to translate the dialect in english.... I try it:
"Sour it in [pickle/steep it], make it thick, one shall mix in the wine — salve it be [a salve results]."
"The impersonal er (he = 'one') is characteristic of medieval Bavarian recipe language, equivalent to modern German man. The verb-subject inversion (mache er, soll er, menge er) is standard MHD word order for instructions.
What’s interesting here is that this is quite clearly a recipe section. And I haven’t changed a single thing about it; the sentence was suggested to me by Claude (not translated by claude!!!). Claude simply helped me find a sentence in which the words mentioned above appear frequently - here were no further instructions, and of course Claude didn’t know either that it was supposed to be a recipe! In that sense, it’s a bit of a coincidence… which is quite intriguing.
But I realise that this is just a starting point, a beginning – nothing more. We’ll just see how things develop...
The search continues...
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 18-03-2026
And so it continues. Here are the lines surrounding it.
What becomes clear is that the cipher isn’t quite right yet. That was to be expected, though.It would have been a fluke.
But more importantly: sentences are emerging that, at least in form, represent sentence structures. This is a key point, as it makes it clear that with the correct cipher, a translation of the text would be possible – and that is astonishing enough.
The problem is, if it really is a cipher of this kind, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to decipher it. And I realise that I’m shying away from the effort, because it would be years of work with no guaranteed outcome.
I now assume that it’s a really poor cipher, that the cipherer didn’t know what he was doing, and that this is the reason why it hasn’t been deciphered so far.
But what the attempts at deciphering have shown so far is that Bavarian is a plausible possibility, precisely because it fits the Voynich text really well in terms of word structures, sentence grammar, word lengths and a few other points.
Unfortunately, I’ve lost a bit of enthusiasm for it at the moment, especially as I’ve got other new projects on the go, but as many say, you always come back to VMS eventually – perhaps sooner than you think. Let’s see how many days I can stay away from the hustle and bustle here
, so whether I’ll pick it up again in a few days or only in a few weeks, or whether at all....All the best to you all...
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 8- 10
dar ar sheey keedy okchy okar okedy chy daiin dy dy dar aiin okary
sauer er schaue weiße des Weisn die war des wise ne sein se se sauer ein die ware
sar or aiin chor or shkair shol or chckhy ar aiin okain dal dy
sauer er ein mache er schwer soll er menge er ein die Wein salbe sey
lcho ar or chey lodaiin o or okeedy okaly
lunar er er nie losen, die er die weiße die ware
in essence:
Sour, one look (at) the white of the wine, that was the way, (it shall) not be, (if) it (is) sour, a(n) (authentic) ware
Sour make one it, thick shall one mix, one mix in the wine — salve be (a salve results)
Lunar (at the moon) one never let loose, the one the white, the ware
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Ruby Novacna - 19-03-2026
tchodaiinoeody ???