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+--- Thread: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) (/thread-5313.html)
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - MarcoP - 01-02-2026
The dedication to the Emperor is in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., so it seems clear that (as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. say) the dedication is about books three and four.
The dedication appears next to an image of St. Dorothy, who speaks in first person in the second paragraph. Translation by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Quote:For you, Sigismund, most exalted prince, ever venerable King of the Romans, I beseech almighty God and the word of the Father, the creator of all, that He may support you in the faith, in long-lasting health and in His love, that you may fight against our enemies and that you may obtain victory over them, receive the imperial crown of the entire world, and, on the day of achievement, be led to eternal life, amen.
To your sacred majesty I always recommend Ser Marianus Jacobi, secretary of the Domus Sapientiae in Siena, who composed this little book and drew my picture. May you be pleased to accept him as one of your family and court, and by the authority of your power to make him master of machines for waterworks. It is his intention to dwell in your Hungarian regions and there to finish his days; to attend to all the devices for waterworks; in books to describe all things done and achieved by you, kings of Hungary, and your antecedents, according to his ability to compile [what is known of] every place; and in said books in margins of the pages to design and illustrate stories.
ST. DOROTHY
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Bernd - 01-02-2026
Yes, this is clear. But do you think Taccola gave his original notebook which would eventually become Palatino 766 to Sigismund? That would have seemed a bit odd but not out of question, considering it is believed Palatino 766 left Taccola's possession soon after completion. Or would he have made/commissioned a more lavish copy for the Emperor?
I have the feeling these statements he let St. Dorothy say about him are more hopes and dreams than reality, much like Taccola's illustrations. Clearly he never left Italy to serve Sigismund in Bohemia/Hungary, nor did they ever meet again. It is not even clear if he and the other Sienese men were actually present in Mantua when they received the title comites palatini on Sep. 24th 1433. To me Taccola appears as someone who had made such a meeting and gift to his revered Emperor well-known and written about it. Yet nothing of such a meting or donation is known even though Taccola continued to work on his other books long after 1433.
The main research question I see is - what happened to Taccola's original manuscripts after his death? And how did Palatino 766 end up in BNCF?
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - MarcoP - 01-02-2026
(01-02-2026, 09:12 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But do you think Taccola gave his original notebook which would eventually become Palatino 766 to Sigismund?
My personal opinion is totally irrelevant: I barely knew that Taccola existed until a couple of days ago. Luckily, there are scholars who studied the subject and we can refer to their work.
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Bluetoes101 - 02-02-2026
(01-02-2026, 10:48 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An interesting question would be where this ray-star sun type came from. I doubt Taccola invented the type.
I don't know, but the sun as a star seems "new" for the time. I wonder if it was astrologers who thought this, or some other specialists for example.
I don't think its common for people to have identified the sun as a star, though my knowledge on this is pretty close to zero.
I think the general consensus at the time was the sun was a planet.. be it a very hot/bright one..
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Bernd - 02-02-2026
Well, your personal opinion certainly matters to me, Marco, and I think to most of the readers here as well!
There is surprisingly little academic work on Taccola. Shelby (1975) is quite critical about the facsimiles of Prager and Beck which were both published in the early 70s yet independently of each other. I don't know the forum policy on uploading articles but here you go. 7 articles, 35MB:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I am still missing these publications:
Beck, J.H., ed. (1969). Mariano di Jacopo detto il Taccola, 'Liber tertius de ingeneis ac edifitiis non usitatis'. Milan: dizioni il Polifilo. p. 156.
Knobloch, Eberhard (1981). Mariano di Jacopo detto Taccolas De machinis: Ein Werk der italienischen Frührenaissance. Technikgeschichte. Vol. 48. pp. 1–27
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Bernd - 21-02-2026
I keep wondering how much of Taccola's work was actually his own invention. If we compare him to Kyeser, much of Taccola's imagery appers to be a Kyeser copy. His artstyle is more organic and 'humanistic' than Kyeser but the imagery is extremely similar. So I would not rule out that he copied the odd 'Sun-Star' as well. Here it's again as St. Dorothy's halo. So far I have not been able to find any sources that pre-date Taccola.
Another odd thing - one of Taccola's trademarks are his 'whirlwind trees'. Nearly every tree in his works is drawn like this and the style was also diligently preserved in his copied works:
If Taccola was a direct reference for the VM, the artists did not choose to copy this tree style. There are some roots that look similar but you won't find a convincing match for any VM plant.
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Koen G - 21-02-2026
We seem to have some consensus that something very adjacent to Taccola must have been a source of the VM. Either the Taccola autograph, or an early copy of it (for the emperor?) or one of Taccola's sources.
The sun-star remains an important point of reference, in my opinion. If Taccola was the one to come up with this thing, then he is the staring point.
The consequence for how we see the VM artist would be this: they are untrained, and rely on examples to produce their art. Once they have learned a technique or manner of representation, they use it over and over (think of the common nymph poses). Hence, it might be that the VM artist learned from Taccola how to draw shores and cliffs, how to draw water basins and water coming out of pipes... But not necessarily other things.
It is also clear that the VM artist had other visual sources, like that of the Zodiac. Their way of drawing animals and human figures is based on a more "German" environment.
To put it differently, I think we're seeing this patchwork of influences because the VM artist was insecure in their skills (rightfully so :)) and "patched" together their drawing vocabulary from a number of sources.
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Bernd - 22-02-2026
I fully agree, Koen!
However this has fundamental implications.
For me the question is if Taccola is a necessary source or if all relevant imagery could also have been found in a Kyeser copy. The wavy shorelines and pipes definitely are. The only puzzle piece missing is the star-sun. The problem is that both Kyeser and Taccola were copied in the same time-frame and due to the similarity of the manuscript imagery, we cannot rule out that original Taccola-imagery ended up in a Kyeser copy. However, if we accept such a hybrid Kyeser copy as source, this would push the VM date significantly towards mid 15th century. Likewise, we cannot rule out that an earlier Kyeser copy existed that was the source for both VM and Taccola-imagery, including the star-sun. Such an early Kyeser solves a lot of problems because he better matches the conventional VM date and Kyeser was widely available.
If we accept Taccola as primary source, things look fundamentally different, especially if we require his De ingeneis ac edificiis, libri III-IV, (Palatino 766) with the star-sun. First, Taccola only finished this book in 1433 and second, it was a very obscure work with no known copies. Even the copy for emperor Sigismund remains speculative. There is no proof it ever existed, no records of it. Even if, the circle of people who had access to it certainly was not large. This is not the kind of manuscript your village doctor in rural Switzerland had access to. I've also wondered if Palatino 766 itself was actually the manuscript given to the emperor. That would be odd but not impossible and would explain why nobody found it noteworthy. Well drawn but not exactly a luxury manuscript.
To sum it up, here are several possibilities of VM sources. I am certain that either Kyeser, Taccola or both must have been a source for the VM.:
.)an early Kyeser copy that also inspired Taccola and contained the star-sun -> post 1405
.)a late hybrid Kyeser copy containing mixed Taccola imagery that somehow included the star-sun -> significantly later than 1433
.)Taccola's original notebook of ingeneis 3+4 (Palatino 766) -> post 1432
.)copy of Taccola's ingeneis 3+4 for emperor Sigismund -> 1433
.)another elusive copy of Taccola's ingeneis 3+4 -> post 1433
The question is what happened to the original notebook (Palatino 766)? I tried to inquire its provenience from BNCF but got no reply. I understand they are busy. But please, if someone, preferably Italian (hint-Marco) could look into this, I am sure it would help us greatly. We must know how and when Palatino 766 ended up in the Florence Library and where it was before!!
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Koen G - 22-02-2026
(22-02-2026, 10:04 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am certain that either Kyeser, Taccola or both must have been a source for the VM.
I agree, and this is hugely significant indeed: I feel like we have never been closer to seeing a book the VM makers must have had in their hands (apart from the actual VMS :))
However, I am not certain if Kyeser offers any advantages over Taccola. The layout of the vertical ravine with the "rainbow bridge" siphoning water, the extra pool to the left and the little stream connecting both bodies of water diagonally running top left to bottom right... This appears to be a Taccola composition used as a basis for whatever You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is supposed to be. And then there's the sun, which was first noticed because of the tubes, then the rare inclusion of a full head, but appeared to have much more going for it still. And the use of patterns, which runs deep. I haven't pointed out all of it yet, because for some reason people here demand 1-on-1 copies. But on a more abstract level, Taccola's art-historical position in between the Middle Ages and Renaissance causes him to use patterns in an idiosyncratic way. And I suspect the VM artist "learned how to draw" specific things from Ingeneis 3+4.
So for me, the main connection remains Taccola. When I talked about this with Marco, we first experienced a certain disorientation. The evidence is actually quite good, but dissonant with previously held beliefs. I was a fervent pre-1430's proponent, and now we're looking at 1433. I opposed connections to royalty, and now we're talking about Barbara of Celje. I defended Alsatian/Swiss sources for the imagery, and now we're in Tuscany?? Not even Lombardy or the Veneto... So there's a lot of mental resistance here, from myself in the first place. But I feel like the evidence is strong enough to adjust those expectations.
At least we are in goat territory :)
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - DG97EEB - 22-02-2026
(22-02-2026, 12:28 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(22-02-2026, 10:04 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am certain that either Kyeser, Taccola or both must have been a source for the VM.
I agree, and this is hugely significant indeed: I feel like we have never been closer to seeing a book the VM makers must have had in their hands (apart from the actual VMS)
However, I am not certain if Kyeser offers any advantages over Taccola. The layout of the vertical ravine with the "rainbow bridge" siphoning water, the extra pool to the left and the little stream connecting both bodies of water diagonally running top left to bottom right... This appears to be a Taccola composition used as a basis for whatever You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is supposed to be. And then there's the sun, which was first noticed because of the tubes, then the rare inclusion of a full head, but appeared to have much more going for it still. And the use of patterns, which runs deep. I haven't pointed out all of it yet, because for some reason people here demand 1-on-1 copies. But on a more abstract level, Taccola's art-historical position in between the Middle Ages and Renaissance causes him to use patterns in an idiosyncratic way. And I suspect the VM artist "learned how to draw" specific things from Ingeneis 3+4.
So for me, the main connection remains Taccola. When I talked about this with Marco, we first experienced a certain disorientation. The evidence is actually quite good, but dissonant with previously held beliefs. I was a fervent pre-1430's proponent, and now we're looking at 1433. I opposed connections to royalty, and now we're talking about Barbara of Celje. I defended Alsatian/Swiss sources for the imagery, and now we're in Tuscany?? Not even Lombardy or the Veneto... So there's a lot of mental resistance here, from myself in the first place. But I feel like the evidence is strong enough to adjust those expectations.
At least we are in goat territory
I'm not sure those things are fully discordant. The evidence for Lauber with the green and red lobster is absolutely clear. The idea of a Tuscan book making it's way to northern Italy or southern Germany is not outlandish either, likewise a book making its way from Germany to Italy is not outlandish. I keep coming back to Padua for a reason. It had a huge Natio Germanica and was the only place Jews were allowed to study (I'm not saying it was Jewish, but I find so many examples of Jews building multi part books, taking inspiration from Arabic, Italian, German, that this seems to em at least plausible). This and its physical location seems to me to be the obvious nexus for all of these elements. As for Barbara, I'm less convinced by this. I think there's some coincidences, but right now my feeling is that's all they are...