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+--- Thread: Can we make isoglosses? (/thread-3988.html)
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Helmut Winkler - 06-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 05:34 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-05-2023, 03:10 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) I have used a software with a large zoom (Foxit PDF Readr, it is free software and everybody can do it for himself) on 116v and I am convinced that there is written 'geis' and not 'gas', the middle letters look different from the severak a's, it is a pity there is no other ei-combination. But it really is a job for someone with access to the original ms. and a strong magnifying glass (by the way, I think there is written anchiton).
The only difference I see with most other 'a's is that this one is crossed by the horizontal dash of the preceding 'g'.
Writing the a or whatever it is over the g needs in my opinion an explanation
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Helmut Winkler - 06-05-2023
It is also worth keeping in mind that Lisa Fagin Davis considers the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. inscription to be a bit later than the manuscript itself, although she expresses this with uncertainty. She wrote (pers. comm.):
"I think it's a bit later than the manuscript itself; perhaps late 15th-c., although it's a fairly small sample with unusual letterforms, so it's difficult to say with real certainty."
I would pu 116v later than he rest of he ms. myself, but only out of the internal logic, thre most distinguishing feature of the scripthe big loops are found since around 1400
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Aga Tentakulus - 06-05-2023
As an example, this is how I see the f66 from the ink, all at the same time.
VM text, German text, and drawing.
No colour or contrast change visible in the ink.
Unfortunately, there is also too little text here to be compared with f116.
With f116 I also see no difference in text and drawing. I do see a similarity between the drawings (nymphs). Drawing style.
I would not give much time difference.
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2023
Just found again while reading through.
It is as Helmut has said. The p/b application.
Here from the same person at "puluer/buluer" "pulver/bulver" powder.
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Koen G - 08-05-2023
I'm trying to get some more practice in reading manuscripts in this style of script. Sometimes the b->p shift is really noticeable, for example You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Austria, Vienna?) has it pretty bad. I think in this fragment alone I see at least three different cases. (Yes I did notice it because the bottom line appeared to read something very weird before I caught on to the b-p shift).
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Aga Tentakulus - 08-05-2023
@Koen
Yes there has also some.
"pyn" (bin)..... "perig" (beary)..... "pist" (bist)
"chunig" (king) .... "her9" (around).... "sun" (son)
Ja da hat es auch einige.
"pyn" (bin)....."perig" (bärig)....."pist" (bist)
"chunig" (König) .... "her9" (herum)...."sun" (Sohn)
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Koen G - 08-05-2023
Also "petrubn" on top (though half cut off).
I also spotted my first "bocks" spelled with "p". "Gaizz" retain the digraph though:
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RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Aga Tentakulus - 08-05-2023
Sometimes small differences make big impact.
"ching"(children).... "chüng"(king)... "chüngl"(rabbit).
Gaas, what one man's goat is another man's goose.
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Anton - 09-05-2023
(03-05-2023, 10:29 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One strategy might be to start with the rarest feature, which may be writing "mich" for "milch" (?) and see if we can find out where its attestations were written
I dare say we will find nothing. My question on RG about this hangs there for several years already, and the only person who replied was a scholar from Austria who could imagine a case of mistake only. I posted that somewhere in the forum back then.
A scribal mistake it can be, hypothetically, but only if the person writing all those cribbles in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could not understand what he writes - that is, if he was blindly copying the stuff.
On the opposite, pox vs box is commonplace, I think it would not allow to pinpoint anything geographically. Other than that, we possess just too little source material for such kind of task.
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - Helmut Winkler - 09-05-2023
Another possibility, to which I tend more and more, is that we also have two intended abbreviations here, gs and mich with an a written over the extenion of the g, comparable to the abbreviations primum putrefacit and palden probiren. Could there be other abbr. on 116v?