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Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Printable Version

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RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Linda - 07-08-2026

(07-08-2026, 03:24 PM)eggyk wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I came across this (wonderfully) illuminated page from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., depicting the announcement to the shephards. 



We can see even in this context, amongst a flock of sheep, a certain little bearded fellow climbing a rockface in the background: 

Those at least all look correct!

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Koen G - 07-08-2026

(07-08-2026, 03:24 PM)eggyk wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We can see even in this context, amongst a flock of sheep, a certain little bearded fellow climbing a rockface in the background

Steinbocks gonna Steinbock    Big Grin

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - eggyk - 24-08-2026

A passage in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. caught my eye today that was quite surprising. In a section about the calendar, each chapter ends with a statement saying which zodiac sign the sun is in during that month. It is interesting for 2 reasons. 

Firstly, the months stated are the same as the annotations on the VMS zodiacs, and are effectively a representation of the "Sol in XYZ" that you see halfway down table calendars. But more relevant to this thread is this passage at the end of the April section on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (page 171): 

   

"In dem mond ist die sune in dem zeichen des steinbock oder wider"
"In this month the sun is in the sign of Capricorn or Aries"

The entry at the end of January has no such confusion, simply calling it Capricorn: 
   

For the rest of the months, the only time "oder" is used in this way is to include another name for scorpio:

"Scorppion oder tharant"
   

So this conflation of the two signs has now not only appeared in visual depictions of the two, but actually also in text.  This scribe had no issue with crossing out mistakes everywhere, but did not do so here. This probably still was a mistake, but it certainly shows that the two signs were indeed conflated in some way during the 15th century.

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Koen G - 24-08-2026

That is interesting indeed. Maybe it makes some sense that these confusions can arise in areas where the sea-goat is no longer in vogue, making both animals known for their horns more similar conceptually. 

Also makes you wonder to what extent copyists were actually mentally processing everything they copied.

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - nablator - 24-08-2026

(24-08-2026, 04:41 PM)Koen G wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also makes you wonder to what extent copyists were actually mentally processing everything they copied.

Mistakes happen...

Chartres cathedral zodiac (13th century) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

MAIUS before APRILIS
Switched JUNIUS-JULIUS labels
2 x "DECENBER"

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - eggyk - 25-08-2026

If it was just "Steinbock" instead of "wider", that can be seen as a small mistake where the wrong name was inserted. As you say, that stuff happens quite a lot. 

But writing the wrong name or messing up an order is a different level of mistake compared to writing "steinbock oder wider". If he realised steinbock was wrong, surely he would have crossed it out like the rest of his mistakes instead of writing "oder wider"? 

Like, where is the "oder" part coming from in this case? It feels like the type of thing you have to choose to write - its a qualifying statement that is not present in the rest of the chapters other than scorpio, where it was used clearly to present two possible names.

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - eggyk - 08-10-2026

I thought I would check in with some progress on this topic. Since the last time I posted here, I've gone through around 200 more sources -mainly from the 13th-16th centuries- including new areas of europe and non-european examples so the net has been rather widened. 

Here are all of the new examples of aries either on a rocky slope / reaching up to highground / climbing and eating a tree:

   

And here are all of the new examples of capricorn:

Climbing up a tree:
   
Reaching/climbing up a rocky slope:
   
Reaching up a hill (even the fishgoats are joining in!):
   
And a few where they are looking up rocky/hilly terrain with trees nearby:
   

One thing is becoming increasingly clear: this tradition is almost non-existent for Aries, but relatively common for capricorn. This applies across centuries, and even whether or not it's fully a goat. 

So, let's take a look and see if there are any noticeable patterns for the usage of this motif. Was it widespread? 

1280 - 1290 France N,      Amiens
1401 - 1500 France,         ?
1401 - 1500 France?,       ?
1401 - 1500 France?,       ?
1405 - 1405 Czechia,        Prague
1426 - 1438 France NW?,  Brittany?
1430 - 1470 France (N?),  Rouen?
1451 - 1475 France,         ?
1460 - 1470 France N,      Rouen
1463 - 1498 France N,      Rouen
1465 - 1475 France N,      Rouen
1470 - 1480 France,         ?
1475 - 1485 France N,      Rouen
1475 - 1500 France N,      Rouen
1475 - 1500 France N,      Rouen?
1480 - 1490 France N,      Rouen?
1485 - 1495 France,         Tours
1490 - 1510 France N,      Rouen
1490 - 1510 France N,      ?
1490 - 1500 France N,      Paris
1500 - 1510 France N,      Rouen
1500 - 1500 France N,      Rouen?
1505 - 1520 France N,      Paris
1506 - 1506 France E?,     Champagne?
1518 - 1518 Germany,      Oppenheim

Out of 25 examples, 15 are from northern france (10 from Rouen!), 5 others are specified as just "France", but in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I used comparisons of virgo, scorpio and sagittarius to show that some of those contain strong links to Rouen as well. Into the 16th century, we see a work supposedly from Eastern france, and a printed work from Germany. 

There is one obvious outlier from the 15th century here: a lone work from Czechia, Prague. Weird. I dug a little deeper and found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Tomáš Gaudek in 2012, which says the following (machine translated): 

Quote:The decoration of the manuscript can be roughly divided into two main parts. In the calendar medallions, the main say belongs to the Master of the Antwerp Bible, while everywhere else the Master of the Krumlov Miscellany (also called the Master of the Krumlov Speculum) clearly predominates.
....
The Master of the Antwerp Bible (also called the Third Master of the Antwerp Bible and the Master of the Book of Joshua) was trained, perhaps following initial instruction in his native country, in France—specifically in the artistic circle of the Master of the Cleres femmes manuscript of the Duke of Berry (formerly known as the Master of 1402).

So it seems that in this particular case, this czech manuscript may too have been illuminated by a (relatively northern) french or flemish artist who was trained in Paris. It's a great example of the type of movement and immigration that happened back then; many of the other signs could also be explained with exactly this type of thing.

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Koen G - 08-10-2026

This is quite interesting. So the month names are most likely from a northern dialect of French (base) with Germanic influences in specific months.

For the Zodiac emblems, there have been some general ideas over the years that they ultimately originated from French examples, but most definitely passed through an area where people spoke German, like Alsace. Seeing Rouen and Amiens surface again now is certainly intriguing.

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - R. Sale - 08-10-2026

Seeing a reference to the Duke of Berry is *certainly* intriguing!

RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Jorge_Stolfi - 09-10-2026

(08-10-2026, 07:53 PM)eggyk wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here are all of the new examples of aries either on a rocky slope / reaching up to highground / climbing and eating a tree: One thing is becoming increasingly clear: this tradition is almost non-existent for Aries, but relatively common for capricorn. This applies across centuries, and even whether or not it's fully a goat.

That is not an artistic tradition.  It is one of the characteristic differences between goat and sheep.  I leaned just last month that
  • Goats will stand on the hind legs to reach leaves and branches.  Sheep will not.
  • Goats have a prehensile tongue that they can extend out to grab bush leaves. Sheep can't do that.
So the pictures of Capricorn doing these things, and Ares mt doing them, are merely good realistic drawings.  Although the artist may have been a city boy who did not know those differences, but just happened to copy their Capricorn and Aries from a correct drawing.

All the best, --stolfi