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+--- Thread: Syllabification (/thread-201.html)
RE: Syllabification - -JKP- - 14-04-2016
(08-03-2016, 07:32 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
As for the derivation of some of the VMS symbols from Latin abbreviations - this is likely, but it is by no means "established". There is a good deal of researchers who would prefer to refrain from this derivation. Actually, if we consider EVA y, this is a shape of the Arabic digit "nine". I don't know if the Latin abbreviation symbol was derived from the digit or it is a standalone invention, but it is certainly not "established" whether the VMS script inherits the abbreviation or the digit. In my opinion, this is the former case, where the y shape is actually comprised of the c with the tail modifier (as suggested by Currier and recently revived by Cham), so as to mask the real glyph composition behind the "well-known" abbreviation symbol. But this is nothing more than a working hypothesis and it is simply not scientifically correct to dub it "established". In science, "established" means proven, consistently reproducible and independently verifiable. In fact, there are too few really established things about the Voynich Manuscript.
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There are very few things about the VMS that I am sure of (most things I am unsure about, actually) but I AM sure that whoever devised the script was familiar with Latin abbreviations.
It's not only that they have the same shapes, they are also used in the same positions and in the same way.
- The Latin "9" usually occurs at the end, sometimes occurs at the beginning, and rarely occurs mid-word. The VMS places it in exactly the same way.
- The Latin -ris- -tis -cis abbreviation is written exactly the same in the VMS and they are almost always at the end of words, as they are in Latin.
- The Latin leaning r (which sometimes resembles the VMS way of writing it and sometimes resembles a 2) is usually standalone or sometimes at the end. The VMS uses it the same way.
- The swooped tail to replace the line over letters if they are at the end is a very common Latin convention and is written in the same way in Voynichese.
- The Latin c or e with a tail is most often stand-alone but sometimes at the end, and the VMS usually places it this way.
- The Latin c-t ligature (which can also be c-c or t-c or e-c or e-r, etc.) can be in a number of positions and is often midword. The VMS places the bench char somewhat the same way.
What they mean is a different subject, but their shapes and positions are derived from Latin.
RE: Syllabification - Koen G - 14-04-2016
I agree that whoever devised the script, based it largely on the Latin one. The Voynich r is "r rotunda", which is a normal way of writing /r/.
The bench glyphs are ligatures of a combination of /k/, /r/, /t/ and/or a vowel. I think there may be subtle variations allowing the trained eye to see which sound is meant, but for me it's often the most annoying glyph to interpret. It becomes easier if you can read the surrounding glyphs though.
I'm not 100% sure yet about Voynich y. It may function as you say in some cases, but for now I read it as an "a with flourish". So just a fancy way of writing a. (this is clearer in the MS than in EVA). An indication for this is that Voynich a rarely appears at the end of words.
RE: Syllabification - -JKP- - 14-04-2016
(14-04-2016, 11:45 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I'm not 100% sure yet about Voynich y. It may function as you say in some cases, but for now I read it as an "a with flourish". So just a fancy way of writing a. (this is clearer in the MS than in EVA). An indication for this is that Voynich a rarely appears at the end of words.
I am careful not to use the word "function" when I refer to the VMS shapes that are derived from Latin. They are the same shapes in the same positions and I believe it's intentionally so. But... they may function in a significantly different way.
I'm also quite sure the Latin 9 is distinct from the Latin a in the VMS, as it is in Latin (or in the many other languages that use the 9 abbreviation). You'll even find places in the VMS where the 9 is superscripted as it often is in Latin.
RE: Syllabification - Koen G - 14-04-2016
Hmm. If you look You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for example, you'll see the first word on the second line. The initial "9" is clearly a 9 here: the "a" in the same word looks totally different.
Now on the other hand, look at the third word on the third line, final "9". That's not a 9, that's an a with a flourish.
RE: Syllabification - Anton - 14-04-2016
Diane:
No I did not intend to mix you with A.M. Smith. I was perfectly sure that you stand for denying the Latin European cultural roots of the script. My apologies for this misuderstanding.
(14-04-2016, 12:05 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hmm. If you look You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for example, you'll see the first word on the second line. The initial "9" is clearly a 9 here: the "a" in the same word looks totally different.
Now on the other hand, look at the third word on the third line, final "9". That's not a 9, that's an a with a flourish.
This is explained if we adopt the "tail modifier" glyph construction scheme. If y is not a 9 but is e + ), then most of y's will be naturally written in that "awkward" way. Same thing for d's. They are not nice native 8's, they are e's with tail loops.
RE: Syllabification - Helmut Winkler - 14-04-2016
(14-04-2016, 11:26 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are very few things about the VMS that I am sure of (most things I am unsure about, actually) but I AM sure that whoever devised the script was familiar with Latin abbreviations.
Well, something similar I have been saying for some time and was brushed down by the head coach. But you have to take the logical conclusion that the VMs is written in a Gothic script of the 15th c. and is at least partly readable. No unknown or invented scripts and why not take the script at its face value?
RE: Syllabification - Anton - 14-04-2016
Taking the script at its face value can be put under a very simple test. Let one take the most frequent word - daiin (or any other high-freq word). And then let him match this word or words with the pool of most frequent words in other contemporary works and see if he succeeds.
RE: Syllabification - Wladimir D - 15-04-2016
In compiling of algorithms I got the impression, that if there is a word, souse 89, the with probability is close to 80% exists the words "root of the word + 8" and " root of the word + 9".
Can anyone verify this programming throughout the text?
RE: Syllabification - Davidsch - 15-04-2016
(15-04-2016, 05:28 AM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In compiling of algorithms I got the impression, that if there is a word, souse 89, the with probability is close to 80% exists the words "root of the word + 8" and " root of the word + 9".
Can anyone verify this programming throughout the text?
Sorry, i do not understand. what is souse 89. what probability ?
RE: Syllabification - Helmut Winkler - 16-04-2016
(14-04-2016, 06:49 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Taking the script at its face value can be put under a very simple test. Let one take the most frequent word - daiin (or any other high-freq word). And then let him match this word or words with the pool of most frequent words in other contemporary works and see if he succeeds.
I don't think there is reason to believe that Voynich 'words' are identical with words in a natural language