+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? (/thread-5968.html)
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Aga Tentakulus - 31-07-2026
Let me put it this way.
I can certainly understand that, living in a big city far from the mountains, you might not know what an ibex looks like.
To see them, you have to go into the mountains.
I see it differently when it comes to billy goats and rams.
For example:
I don’t know what a ram looks like, so I’ll just draw a goat. I reckon he’s drawn the ram as he imagined it to be.
Which is more likely: simply drawing something he’d be familiar with, or a breed we no longer recognise today?
Now I’m applying this to the ram in the VM.
As far as I’m concerned, he drew it as he saw it.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I see the same thing with the scorpion. It’s completely unknown north of the Alps. But people are already familiar with its peculiar markings.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Koen G - 31-07-2026
The Taurus image shows that this isn't true. They drew the weird deer-like creature they found in tradition, not the beast they saw in the pastures.
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Aga Tentakulus - 31-07-2026
Just because the antlers are a bit longer doesn’t make it a stag.
Have a look under ‘ancient breeds’.
Threatened with extinction.
It’s clear to me. Just as pictured. With a few differences.
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Aga Tentakulus - 31-07-2026
I had my reasons for writing this. Take a look at the coats of arms.
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - eggyk - 31-07-2026
(31-07-2026, 12:04 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As far as I’m concerned, he drew it as he saw it.
The question is did he see it in a field, or did he see it in a book? Considering both "designs" exist in and out of books, and that we have no idea exactly where or how the VMS artist lived, or whether the VMS artist was well travelled, or which animals he had and had not seen, it seems rather premature to make a declaration either way.
Just because a species used to exist, does not mean the other species did not exist. We see twisted horn rams across the centuries, and we see VMS shaped horns across the centuries. How can we know which were drawn from personal experience, and which were copied? We literally cannot know.
And all of this assumes the VMS artist was actually capable of drawing what he meant correctly, which frankly, doesn't seem likely given how bad the drawing quality is in general.
All of this is why the "drawing convention" matters more than the actual species. If VMS had LEO gnawing at some trees like VMS Aries, I would have made the exact same thread claiming Leo was inspired by Capricorn "convention". It just so happens that rams and mountain goats have way more overlap of features.
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - eggyk - 01-08-2026
Here's another clear mix of styles:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1506AD
France E?, Champagne?
(i've had to enhance these images to make them better to view, the link contains the dark greyscale versions)
If I ask which one is aries and which one is capricorn, would it be obvious which is which? Out of context, I don't think so. Both contain qualities normally found in the other.
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Koen G - 01-08-2026
Good examples. My only option was to guess wrong, because of the beard. In retrospect, perhaps one may say that Capricorn's coat is wild and shaggy while Aries is a woolly cotton ball? Still, it's all messed up.
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Aga Tentakulus - 01-08-2026
Perhaps we need to look at it differently.
What is it, then? Without antlers, I’d say it’s a goat.
Judging by its posture, a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
1. Artistic ability. He’s not exactly a Rubens in the VM.
2. Try it yourself.
Everyone knows what a ram looks like. Draw a ram with a fountain pen or ballpoint pen (no corrections allowed) from memory, without any reference (photo, picture or anything else).
Let yourself be surprised. Perhaps the real artists are the children in nursery.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - Jorge_Stolfi - 01-08-2026
(01-08-2026, 05:33 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Perhaps we need to look at it differently. What is it, then? Without antlers, I’d say it’s a goat. Judging by its posture, a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
I just learned another key difference between goats and sheeps goat and shoop goat and sheep, besides the latter being the only ones who will stand on their hind legs to reach food. Goats have a prehensile tongue that they can extend and twist to grab leaves and twigs. Sheep cannot extend their tongue out of their mouths.
All the best,
--stolfi
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn? - eggyk - 07-08-2026
I came across this (wonderfully) illuminated page from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., depicting the announcement to the shephards.
We can see even in this context, amongst a flock of sheep, a certain little bearded fellow climbing a rockface in the background: