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+--- Thread: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect (/thread-5838.html)
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - JustAnotherTheory - 23-06-2026
(23-06-2026, 09:51 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.swallowtail merlons of the Kremlin wall
Hahaha, I didn't know that was the case
I've learned something today
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - JoJo_Jost - 23-06-2026
(23-06-2026, 09:58 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It doesn't have to, because they're keywords separated by the + sign. But it still tells a story.
It's just a curse.
Okay, but the problem is then, that these words all have multiple meanings; if you set grammar aside, you can interpret them in all sorts of ways. There could be around 100 possible sentences if you explore all the possibilities, of which maybe 10 make sense.
Example: Be the sea’s custom-power; depart, Mary!
Bsp: Sei des Meeres Brauch-Kraft; weiche Maria!
Be the sea’s and die in its might; you depart (from) Mary.
Sei des Meeres und sterbe in der gewalt, gehst du fort (von) Maria.
Etc., etc., and I didn’t even try very hard... That is eisegesis
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - Aga Tentakulus - 23-06-2026
You're forgetting the “so nim xxx mich o” part.
Now you've got a suicide in the sea, and that whole thing with the Virgin Mary.
It's exactly because of nonsense like this that I don't like to give explanations.
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - JoJo_Jost - 23-06-2026
(23-06-2026, 10:48 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You're forgetting the “so nim xxx mich o” part.
Now you've got a suicide in the sea, and that whole thing with the Virgin Mary.
It's exactly because of nonsense like this that I don't like to give explanations.
Sorry, I didn't mean to question your theory—if you want to believe in it, go ahead.
(23-06-2026, 11:24 AM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am having issues as well, to find the information I am looking for.
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RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - monisusa - 23-06-2026
(22-06-2026, 09:33 AM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.With some assumptions, it still sounds plausible. However, if this is bocksleber, then why did the author write it down as poxleber? Are there any other examples of similar practices where words were written down the same way they were pronounced? And is it really worth omitting the pox-prefix?(22-06-2026, 09:11 AM)monisusa Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(21-06-2026, 09:50 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="JoJo_Jost" pid='86149' dateline='1782074313']By the way, there are problems even with reading text on f17r. Even if we accept this as true, the meaning of this text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not particularly clear in this form. I believe that the combination of the word poxleber and crosses suggests a magical rather than a medicinal meaning.
Since the word “Poxleber” was found in an Austrian sermon, I believe it’s highly likely that the marginal notes are Bavarian.
However, reading “mchiton” as “anchiton” has already been discussed; yet interpreting it as “anchiton” = a c hi ton = “an zeh hin tun” and “oladabas” = “als a bas(in)” = “alles ein basin”- in short, “an zeh hin tun alles ein basin” (a toe do in, everything a basin) - requires a high degree of eisegesis. Especially since this sentence doesn’t make any sense at all without heavy interpretation (eisegesis), and other “interpretations” also seem rather far-fetched to me - since they require a high degree of interpretation. Another example: atzia = atzen (to etch) mo vix? mo = mollire vix = wax.
Especially turning the Voynichese into Latin abbreviations - difficult....
I, for one, am not convinced. But of course, that doesn’t mean anything
And I would also like to know why the author shortened the words so much...
P.S. Of course, it's off-topic, but I had a theory that the marginalia on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. were not written by the author, but by someone who received the manuscript from the author. This person might have known more about the manuscript and attempted to decipher it. It's possible that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents an unsuccessful attempt at deciphering the manuscript (it's possible that the recipe).
Hi, thank you for your question. Bocksleber = poxleber = liver of a billy goat. Liver was a common ingredient of medieval medicine. I explained that the "crosses" simply are addition signs to note which ingredients have to be added and which production steps to be carried out next. I could not find any trace of a magical content however, it is clearly a recipe with ingredients as willow bark, wax, potash, quick lime. I had these lines checked by the Head of the Austrian Chamber of Pharmacy Prof. Beba and he confirmed the plausibility of it. I reproduced this ointment successfully.
[/quote
Hello, as explained in my study the German sound /ks/ can be spelled with ks, cks or x. It is always pronounced the same way. At that time, German spelling was not yet standardized, therefore various spellings can occur. This doesn't mean one or the other spelling is "wrong". Furthermore, it depends where the author was taught to write German which chancellery, monasteric environment, a place abroad etc. The b to p shift is a typical feature of the Upper German language group. Both spelling existed at the same time. Brot > prot (bread), bishof > pischof (bishop), Bern > pern (town in Switzerland).
Shortening words was mostly done to save parchment and time. Kind regard, Monika
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - monisusa - 23-06-2026
(22-06-2026, 10:39 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."an c hi ton olas a bas(sin) + mvltos(ch) + tc + ca v cevc + povtas(ch) + M +
s(al)ix + ma(cerat) vix + mo(llire) vix + V\X + atzia + ma(na) in vi(tr)a +
ar(d)or (ar)t(ri)ticus vals c nv z vey so nim gasmich o…"
"Apply to toe, everything into a basin + gauze bag + sebum + quicklime + potash + M(mix)
salix (willow bark) + (into) macerate(put)wax + melt wax + V\X(minutes) + let get thickly + pour it into glasses+
ardor artriticus if toe still too painful then take goatsmilk o…"
It still looks like nonsense to me. Could you show any actual medieval manuscripts with all these Bavarian spellings, or are those just your guesses?
Hi, after years of research there are more than guesses. I discussed the text with pharmacists to check the ingredients and logical sequence. My local pharmacist remembered to have learned the expression "mana in vitra" at university. Moreover I also discussed it with experts of German studies at University of Vienna, Salzburg and Innsbruck. The last sentence has a proper syntax.
And please explain: what exactly is it you consider "nonsense" ? Do you refer to the ingredients, the reading of the gothic cursive, the dialectal spelling? These spellings are exceptional just as the Voynich-Manuscript is exceptional. Nevertheless, there are in fact numerous manuscripts in Bavarian language but this is indeed special. However, it is just a brief note, not a manuscript.
Everday texts as e.g. housebooks were written in vernacular. Medical expressions in Latin. Last but not not least - I understand the language. Kind regards Monika
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - monisusa - 23-06-2026
(23-06-2026, 07:56 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(23-06-2026, 07:28 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These are sayings.
As you can see above, the “x” here is a sharp ‘s’ (double “ss”).
This has all been discussed countless times.
I'm sure Koen has dozens of sayings like this in his archive.
But I'm not willing to repeat everything 100 times just because people are too lazy to read.
??? That was not my question.
You write: If you replace the “x” in “six, marix morix vix” with an “s,” you get a saying. It's in Latin, and according to the dictionary, it's error-free.
sis maris moris vis abeat maria = “Bock, die with the power of the Holy Mary.”
Where did you get that translation from? What are the latin word roots you used for that translation? I wanted examples of that I dont undestand ur translation, thats all.
Hello, please do not mix up the r with the v! In my study I refer to it. It reads: ma vix and not marix, mo vix and not morix, ma + via. "Vix/wichs" is an old German word for "Wachs" meaning wax.
It is still used today in Bavarian regions mostly when putting wax on to skiers. Also for "Schuhwichse" which is wax for shoes. We shouldn't replace letters just because we do not
understand them and make something new of it. By the way: "abea" is not correct, the second character represents the gothic cursive "tz/z". Kind regards Monika
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - Bernd - 23-06-2026
(23-06-2026, 09:17 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To me, this indicates that the marginalia was added probably after 1500. Is there any reason to think otherwise?In addition to Koen's remark that the handwriting is likely early 15th century, contemporary with the VM vellum, the images associated with the marginalia closely resemble the regular imagery of the bifolio and quire. It is therefore not unreasonable to assume that the marginalia were written by the same person who made the VM drawings, and shortly after those were created. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a bit problematic in this regard as the quire contains no imagery aside from stars, but all in all the marginalia follow a consistent pattern. I find it unlikely that someone should and could closely mimic the author's bad drawing skills in matching style of the quire when adding the marginalia at a significantly later date. I would not rule out that the marginalia on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. were created after the entire VM was finished as the nymph is fairly advanced for VM standards, but not much later.
(23-06-2026, 02:50 PM)monisusa Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, after years of research there are more than guesses. I discussed the text with pharmacists to check the ingredients and logical sequence. My local pharmacist remembered to have learned the expression "mana in vitra" at university. Moreover I also discussed it with experts of German studies at University of Vienna, Salzburg and Innsbruck. The last sentence has a proper syntax.Again I have to ask - which experts specifically, and did you show them a scan of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , or just your transliteration of the marginalia text?
I remain agnostic about the text and its meaning (if any), but which letters represent a 'v' or 'r' is far from certain and debatable. As are most aspects of the VM.
Regarding the 'x' in pox, see here:
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RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - Aga Tentakulus - 23-06-2026
(23-06-2026, 03:11 PM)monisusa Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello, please do not mix up the r with the v!
I’m reading it correctly.
It’s spelled “maris.” Maris means “goat.” (Bock). Here, it’s used as a synonym for “marisca” / wart.
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It’s not “abea”—I never wrote that—but “altia,” meaning “sublime.” It comes from “alti” and the feminine form “altia.” “Sublime” means standing above everything else.
No “h” and no “b.”
I’ve described all of this in detail somewhere.
These two lines are certainly not German, and they never will be.
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect - monisusa - 23-06-2026
(23-06-2026, 06:00 AM)Zauriek Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Based on what some experts say, the + is a clear indication it is a charm. And recepies are like like vertical listings in medieval manuscripts, right?
Hello, Here the + just represents an addition sign meaning "and". Yes, I have seen vertical listings in prescriptions.
But this is not a prescription, it is a recipe. Kind regards, Monika