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+--- Thread: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) (/thread-5313.html)
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - ReneZ - 29-01-2026
(29-01-2026, 09:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also frequently argued against the notion (maybe introduced by Nick Pelling?) that the parallel hatching in the MS showed familiarity with renaissance techniques. While it's still not the subtle cross-hatching we get in later artists, there may have been more truth to that idea than I thought. It does seem to be mimicking drawing techniques straight from a renaissance source.
For this it would be necessary to make a represetative list of where hatching seems to appear in the Voynich MS.
From what I remember (years ago now) the cases were not all fully convincing.
The influence of Renaissance in Siena MS may be a complicated issue...
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Bernd - 30-01-2026
Wikipedia Wrote:While his subject matter is already that of later Renaissance artist-engineers, his method of representation still owes much to medieval manuscript illustration. Due to the political rivalry between Siena and Florence, Taccola was never exposed to linear perspective, a growing graphical style in Florence. Moreover, Taccola drew his machines based on what looked proper to him, not based on geometrical considerations.For someone like me who struggles with the most basic drawings, it's baffling how such an advanced artist could not understand perspective. But I guess it' something that does not come naturally?
Wikipedia Wrote:Overall, Taccola's goal of his treatises was to shed light on old Greco-Roman machines, as opposed to principally writing about his own designs.[13] On a case-to-case basis, Taccola would cite the earlier designs imagined by Vegetius and Kyeser.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. wrote Bellifortis around 1405, a book about war machines and military technology which clearly influenced Taccola. It contains a number of interesting illustrations including pipes.
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RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - ReneZ - 30-01-2026
Vegetius was new to me. Also extremely interesting:
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RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Jorge_Stolfi - 30-01-2026
(30-01-2026, 12:23 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it's baffling how such an advanced artist could not understand perspective
I supposed he saw himself as an engineer, not as an artist. So in his drawings he strove for clarity, not realism.
On this page (right) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
for instance, he drew the base of the tower in top view, instead of the "correct" side view, to show that it was round.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Koen G - 30-01-2026
(29-01-2026, 11:57 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The influence of Renaissance in Siena MS may be a complicated issue...
I definitely agree. The Wikipedia article calls him a transitional figure, with his art style influenced by medieval manuscript art rather than Renaissance innovations:
Quote:Taccola's drawings show him to be a man of transition: While his subject matter is already that of later Renaissance artist-engineers, his method of representation still owes much to medieval manuscript illustration.[18] Due to the political rivalry between Siena and Florence, Taccola was never exposed to linear perspective, a growing graphical style in Florence.[19] Moreover, Taccola drew his machines based on what looked proper to him, not based on geometrical considerations.[20] Despite these graphic inconsistencies, Taccola's style has been described as being forceful, authentic and usually to be relied upon to capture the essential.[21]
So I don't know how to classify this use of parallel lines for shadows, but Taccola seems to have loved it. Sometimes his application of this cast shadow is not very elegant, and that's where it gets interesting. He will follow the outside border of the object that's casting the shadow, almost drawing like parallel hairs on it. This is a very specific technique (or misuse of one) that people would not use spontaneously.
The VM does this too in some cases, to draw these parallel lines attached to objects. And this is again why I suspect they had access to a Taccola manuscript. I'm not sure how well I'm explaining it, or if these images will be helpful... These are not meant as parallels for the whole construction, but just see how slightly awkwardly shadows cast by the object are drawn.
See the pillar held by the ship: it is "hairy" all around.
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Jorge_Stolfi - 30-01-2026
(30-01-2026, 01:21 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sometimes [taccola's] application of this cast shadow is not very elegant, and that's where it gets interesting. He will follow the outside border of the object that's casting the shadow, almost drawing like parallel hairs on it. This is a very specific technique (or misuse of one) that people would not use spontaneously.... See the pillar held by the ship: it is "hairy" all around.
The most common function of such hatching is not to depict shadows, but to indicate depth. The hairs along a line indicate that it is the silhouette of an object, and show which side of it is the background. That device does rely on our eyebrain's use of shadows to deduce the 3d dimension; but it is exploited locally, around each point of the silhouette. Thus it does not have to be consistent all around, nor consistent with the presumed direction of the light in the scene.
Even though we see colors with three color coordinates, at a very early stage -- starting just below the retina -- those thee coordinates are remapped to two "chroma" coordinates, that tell the hue and saturation of the color, and one "brightness" coordinate. Those values are converted to log-like scales, and the brightness is then subtracted from the chroma values; so that a red apple will seem to have the same color whether it is in full sunlight or in the shade. Meanwhile the gradient (spatial derivatives) of the brightness are computed and sent to the brain. The recognition of shapes, including letters, uses only this signal, ignoring chroma.
This mechanism has a number of interesting consequences. Like, it explains why we have names for hue/saturation combinations like orange and pink, but not for shades of gray; and why one cannot tell whether two parts of an image are the same level of gray unless they are right next to each other -- in which case we can easily notice a difference of 1% in brightness. And it explains why we can recognize people and spoons and armadillos in pen drawings, like cartoons, even if they are painted blue or unpainted. And how an artist can create the illusion of a light-emitting lamp or moon simply by painting a darker halo around it. And why one should not use yellow letters on white background, or blue letters on black background -- even though, mathematically, those color pairs should be as distinct as green on black.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Koen G - 30-01-2026
I know this may be getting a bit too theoristy for some people... but some of these shapes are just so similar.
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Bluetoes101 - 30-01-2026
I got a bit "theoristy" initially but dialled it back, but if we are going there..
(you started it!) I would also point out the random sky (land) animals. Some look like they may have been drawn randomly, but others have people looking at them so I assume they are part of the whole depiction. It reminded me of our dragon/sheep/armadillo on it's cloud. (I think there's about 5 in total)
Also, the way he does hilltops reminded me of the "puzzle root"
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - Koen G - 30-01-2026
Hey now, don't retaliate! :p
Most of what's posted in this thread will be of the "could be a coincidence" type. And the exceptional nature of them will only be clear to those who have first-hand experience with how hard to find they are.
I hadn't noticed the guy looking at the sky sheep yet. Aries or drollery-type surrealism?
Also, I hadn't looked at the plants yet. I guess a few of them are reminiscent of this kind of stuff, like the fountain we discussed recently.
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola) - ReneZ - 31-01-2026
For me, Siena is a bit outside the likely area of influence for the Voynich MS, both geographically (it is quite far south) and timewise, though that is definitely marginal. There would have hardly been any timefor the MS to 'spread'.
Siena should be 'goat skin territory', though that should be checked.
On the Rosenwald manuscripts, it should be noted that these are Valturius manuscripts that postdate the Voynich MS. I am not aware of the repationship (dependence) of Valturius on Vegetius, which (most probably) predates the Voynich MS.
Finally, I am hesitant (as always) to infer things too specifically from drawing similarities.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Vegetius (from the Wikipedia page) is more similar to anything I have ever seen to our 'mussdel' drawing, but I am convinced that is coincidental.