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+--- Thread: Decoding the Voynich Symbols (/thread-4551.html)
RE: Voynich Decoded - Mark Knowles - 16-03-2025
(16-03-2025, 02:00 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-03-2025, 01:12 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You feel like the solution was there in plain sight, and that somebody else might also stumble upon it tomorrow.
Yet despite it being in plain sight, at no point does anyone seem to ask the question "If I've made the breakthrough in a matter of minutes/hours/days, how come all these people - including expert codebreakers and linguists - labouring over it for decades didn't find it? Wait a minute, could I have fallen into the same trap as all those wrong solvers before me?"
Except that historically with problems it is not unusual for people to make breakthroughs that others have not spotted.
At the moment as far as is known for certain no breakthroughs in Voynich research have been achieved except for the carbon dating. Why is this? How will this change? In my own case, I have my own theory, although it is not a decipherment, which I have been pursuing, but until it is proven or disproven then it is just a theory.
I think there are different ideas about how progress is made and it is not always how people might have anticipated in advance.
RE: Voynich Decoded - tavie - 16-03-2025
(16-03-2025, 02:25 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Except that historically with problems it is not unusual for people to make breakthroughs that others have not spotted.
In such a short period of time? Something that was so obvious that a solver could pinpoint it within minutes/hours/a few day but went unseen by everyone else for decades?
It's probably due to how media over-simplifies and over-sensationalizes discoveries, but I have seen a perception that the Linear B decipherment was due to Michael Ventris suddenly having the genius insight to look for place names on the Linear B tablets. But this line of inquiry was the culmination of his years of forensic analysis of the Linear B glyphs and earlier insights/discoveries, and the analysis and discoveries of others (Ventris certainly did not adopt the common approach of Voynich solvers to deliberately ignore existing work!).
Maybe it's just me... but I don't think there are any such low-hanging fruits left in the VM that have been missed by everyone over the years. I do believe there are still plenty of medium-high hanging fruits waiting to be discovered with a bit of work, since there are so many different aspects that can be analysed in different ways. We've seen a few of these in the work produced in the last few years.
But the idea that the great breakthrough could be obvious seems unlikely to me. Especially since we already know that there exists this massive trap in the VM that makes so many people passionately believe they have made the great breakthrough when they haven't.
RE: Voynich Decoded - Mark Knowles - 16-03-2025
(16-03-2025, 03:01 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-03-2025, 02:25 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Except that historically with problems it is not unusual for people to make breakthroughs that others have not spotted.
In such a short period of time? Something that was so obvious that a solver could pinpoint it within minutes/hours/a few day but went unseen by everyone else for decades?
It's probably due to how media over-simplifies and over-sensationalizes discoveries, but I have seen a perception that the Linear B decipherment was due to Michael Ventris suddenly having the genius insight to look for place names on the Linear B tablets. But this line of inquiry was the culmination of his years of forensic analysis of the Linear B glyphs and earlier insights/discoveries, and the analysis and discoveries of others (Ventris certainly did not adopt the common approach of Voynich solvers to deliberately ignore existing work!).
Maybe it's just me... but I don't think there are any such low-hanging fruits left in the VM that have been missed by everyone over the years. I do believe there are still plenty of medium-high hanging fruits waiting to be discovered with a bit of work, since there are so many different aspects that can be analysed in different ways. We've seen a few of these in the work produced in the last few years.
But the idea that the great breakthrough could be obvious seems unlikely to me. Especially since we already know that there exists this massive trap in the VM that makes so many people passionately believe they have made the great breakthrough when they haven't.
There can often be a very significant element of luck involved in breakthroughs. The Voynich manuscript is a very large document with so very many research avenues to explore. It may be that on one of the many pages there is the key to deciphering the manuscript which has either been overlooked or insufficiently studied. Things can often seem obvious when the solution is found, but may not seen so obvious beforehand.
The key is what you mean by the word "obvious". This is almost a semantic question.
The idea that there is a special trap or feature unique to the Voynich manuscript that makes people believe they have made a breakthrough, when they haven't, doesn't make sense to me. The Voynich is a very tough problem, so it is not surprising that people arrive at false solutions. I admit it is annoying when people repeat the same flawed method as someone else without a knowledge of their predecessor's mistakes.
I still find it amazing that I strongly believe the rosettes folio represents a map, whilst others strongly believe the rosettes folio represents a wide range of other things. The fact that we can't agree on something so basic indicates to me how far we have to go to make progress. Ultimately, we are left to rely on the verdict that time will come to.
RE: Voynich Decoded - tavie - 16-03-2025
(16-03-2025, 03:25 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There can often be a very significant element of luck involved in breakthroughs. The Voynich manuscript is a very large document with so very many research avenues to explore. It may be that on one of the many pages there is the key to deciphering the manuscript which has either been overlooked or insufficiently studied. Things can often seem obvious when the solution is found, but may not seen so obvious beforehand.
The key is what you mean by the word "obvious". This is almost a semantic question.
My point is that breakthroughs are not down to just luck (and genius) alone. I'm struggling to think of anyone who made a great breakthrough or any breakthrough when they were entirely or almost new to the field, especially if they avoided reading all previous literature on the subject. Most Voynich solutions tend to be like that. The initial breakthrough appears very quick, even if some may hang around for a while developing their system.
When you talk about there being many research avenues to explore that could have been overlooked or insufficiently studied, that's exactly what I meant by medium-high or higher hanging fruit. I'm sure there are plenty of those still left to discover with both study and a bit of luck. But that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the kind of breakthrough that is usually made by someone relatively new to the manuscript within hours or at best days of looking at the manuscript. I can't believe such low-hanging fruits exist.
Quote:The idea that there is a special trap or feature unique to the Voynich manuscript that makes people believe they have made a breakthrough, when they haven't, doesn't make sense to me.
Has anyone said this? This kind of trap is far from unique to the Voynich. There were people who wrongly believed they had solved Linear B before Ventris did. Both the kind of mistakes they made and the passion of their convictions are all too familiar.
The Zodiac 340 also was known for solveritis, and there are still at least one or two who declare their solution is correct despite it being clearly inferior in every metric to the solution identified by David Oranchak et al. Fermat's Last Theorem was also prone to solveritis, including or perhaps especially by people who weren't mathematicians - I think I once read that the adjudicators of the prize had to get someone to sort proofs into two categories: ones that were at least real mathematics (but turned out to be wrong); and ones that were basically nonsense. I also imagine the Indus Valley script suffers from a similar phenomenon.
RE: Voynich Decoded - 5dd95 - 16-03-2025
(16-03-2025, 01:01 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you think it is remotely possible someone like Friedman could not figure out a simple substitution cipher?i am neather saying what it is or what it isnt. i Didnt know Friedman. Cant say. What i can say is i respect his efforts. the bottom line is He didnt decode any part of the voynich Manuscript.
RE: Voynich Decoded - 5dd95 - 16-03-2025
(16-03-2025, 04:01 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There can often be a very significant element of luck involved in breakthroughs. The Voynich manuscript is a very large document with so very many research avenues to explore. It may be that on one of the many pages there is the key to deciphering the manuscript which has either been overlooked or insufficiently studied. Things can often seem obvious when the solution is found, but may not seen so obvious beforehand.when i do my video podcast i will post a Linkm In Voynich ninga. in the podcast i will reveal how the manuscript works.
RE: Voynich Decoded - ReneZ - 17-03-2025
(16-03-2025, 02:00 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."If I've made the breakthrough in a matter of minutes/hours/days, how come all these people - including expert codebreakers and linguists - labouring over it for decades didn't find it?
RE: Voynich Decoded - 5dd95 - 17-03-2025
(17-03-2025, 12:31 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."If I've made the breakthrough in a matter of minutes/hours/days, how come all these people - including expert codebreakers and linguists - labouring over it for decades didn't find it?
What is Tesla's famous quote?
Let the future tell the truth and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments
RE: Voynich Decoded - tavie - 17-03-2025
Tesla read and learned from previous work in his field.
RE: Voynich Decoded - 5dd95 - 17-03-2025
(17-03-2025, 12:02 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tesla read and learned from previous work in his field.sometimes reasearch need a diferent perspective. Many have tryed and Been unsuxcessfull by following other peoples reasearch. one of the people i do agree with is Lisa Fagin Davis. regarding diferent authers worked on creating the voynich Manuscript. i totally Agree Three possibly up to five people. wher involved in creating this masterpeice.. i also thing when wilfrid voynich got hold of the manuscript it was incomplete. i think a lot of the drawings were added to changed from what they originally were. Not imposible right.
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Theree are many layers to the voynich manuscript. i am not suprised it had people scratching their heads Me included especcially when i first got hold of the script.