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+--- Thread: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis (/thread-5008.html)
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-01-2026
(11-01-2026, 02:39 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The line is a nebuly line.
We may call it "nebuly" for the lack of a better name. But is is not the "nebuly line" of heraldry.
The lines we are referring to are simple wavy lines where each crest or through is swollen into knobs. They look like the nebuly lines of heraldry. But in the VMS they are used as the edges of pools of water or rain clouds. Not in blasons.
Quote:The VMs artist's familiarity with the use of a nebuly line as a cloud band / cosmic boundary is demonstrated in the VMs cosmos.
Those lines are not at all the "nebuly lines" of heraldry. They are cloud-bands or wolkenbands, and have a very different and specific shape. They are generally rendered as 3D objects, not simple lines -- as twisted ribbons with a thick edge with little bumps. They are common in manuscripts of the period, to indicate the boudary between Earthly and Heavenly domains; but, again, they are not used in blasons.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - Legit - 11-01-2026
(10-01-2026, 10:21 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, here are my point-point-comparisons to a particular armadillo illustration: The Gesner armadillo. This particular one not only has the most number of comparable points (pointy ears, upturned snout, but also one very particular feature of both is the same: The scales are drawn backwards:
Armadillos don't have scales like that.
The artist here doesn't seem to know the difference either and has unfortunately drawn the scales of a pangolin on two creatures. Is this hubris, or deliberately meant to mislead us?
Here's a pangolin from India with it's scaly hide.
Here is an armadillo compared with a fish. You see, a pangolin has overlapping scales like a fish, but an armadillo does not. The armadillo pectoral shield, banded shield and pelvic shield were drawn correctly by other medieval artists.
Medieval artists didn't just draw a bunch of scales and call it an armadillo. Here you can see a clear separation between it's pectoral shield, banded shield and pelvic shield.
The obvious interpretation is that it's meant to be another dragon, and not the great sleeping armadillo that lays over the heavens.
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - Koen G - 11-01-2026
Made with Gemini (I have no artistic talent)
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - R. Sale - 11-01-2026
Respectfully, the prior Post #351 contains several errors. The term 'nebuly' derives from the Latin 'nebula' meaning 'cloud' and the German equivalent 'gewolkt' derives from 'die Wolke' meaning 'cloud'. So, in either situation the basic reference in heraldry and in various artistic uses is to *clouds*.
That being said, not all cloud bands are based on nebuly lines and not all cosmic boundaries are based on cloud bands.
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Many examples of wolkenbands (esp. early ones) are irregular and have no repeating pattern. While other examples of cosmic boundaries are not based on "cloud" motifs at all (e.g. solar versions based on indented and rayonny lines). Where nebuly lines were used as a basis for cloud bands / cosmic boundaries, they are frequently embellished as in the early 15th C. examples of Pizan above or the scallop-shell patterns of BNF Fr. 565. However, that is not always the case and plain nebuly lines were used to represent cosmic boundaries in the Berry Apocalypse MS M. 133. [Both MS M. 133 and BNF Fr. 565 were in the Berry library c. 1410.]
A *blazon* is a linguistic description of a heraldic insignia. Thus, Wolkenstein is blazoned, 'Per bend nebuly argent et gules'.
Lower left:
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Lower right:
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RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - proto57 - 11-01-2026
(11-01-2026, 03:25 PM)Legit Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(10-01-2026, 10:21 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, here are my point-point-comparisons to a particular armadillo illustration: The Gesner armadillo. This particular one not only has the most number of comparable points (pointy ears, upturned snout, but also one very particular feature of both is the same: The scales are drawn backwards:
Armadillos don't have scales like that.
The artist here doesn't seem to know the difference either and has unfortunately drawn the scales of a pangolin on two creatures. Is this hubris, or deliberately meant to mislead us?
You do know that the "artist here" is me, right? In any case, as the artist, I can answer: Not much thought was put into strict distinctions past a certain level, it's just a cartoon.
Quote:Here's a pangolin from India with it's scaly hide... ...the obvious interpretation is that it's meant to be another dragon, and not the great sleeping armadillo that lays over the heavens.
Well if the identification was "obvious" as you say, we wouldn't be having these discussions at all!
But while I have you, I'll ask, "I have given a context within my overall hypothesis as to 'why' an armadillo would be used here*. Would you, similarly, have an overall context for the Voynich: meaning, geography, parallel usage, whatever... which you feel would explain the use of a dragon on f80v?".
* Above, two Kunstkammers which contain animals, plants and artifacts from (among other places in the world) the "New World". Many others suspect that the Voynich is a New World document... I do not, but I do accept the reasons that led those researchers to believe this possible: Many apparent New World plants and animals, including the armadillo. In short, as a book meant to appear as though it You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., this imagery would be perfectly in context, and to be expected.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., by Jules Janick and Arthur O. Tucker, (portion of) pages 167 and 168:
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-01-2026
(11-01-2026, 07:55 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A *blazon* is a linguistic description of a heraldic insignia. Thus, Wolkenstein is blazoned, 'Per bend nebuly argent et gules'.
I stand corrected, thanks. (The Portuguese cognate "brasão" has the same strict/technical meaning, but here it also has a common meaning that is the insignia itself.)
Quote:The term 'nebuly' derives from the Latin 'nebula' meaning 'cloud' and the German equivalent 'gewolkt' derives from 'die Wolke' meaning 'cloud'. So, in either situation the basic reference in heraldry and in various artistic uses is to *clouds*.
Yes, my Latin and German are almost non-existent, but enough to tell me that.
Quote:That being said, not all cloud bands are based on nebuly lines and not all cosmic boundaries are based on cloud bands.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I did not say that, rather the converse: the distinctive "wolkenbands" were used in art to indicate the Earthy/Heavenly boundaries.
The point I wanted to make is that the "wavy lines with swollen knobs" we see in the VMS are basically in the Bio section where they denote water, not heavens or heraldry: in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (pool with showers) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the "Fallopian tubes" at the top), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (pool at bottom). (Are there others?)
There is a double line like that in f68v3 (the edge of the "starry pool" in the middle of the "galaxy"), but its meaning is uncertain: it may be an "edge of heavens", but it looks more like the edge of a pool...
In spite of all the suggestions, I have yet to see anything in the VMS that clearly refers to heraldry. That seem to have been as alien to the Author as Christianity and Feudalism...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - Bluetoes101 - 11-01-2026
"In the manuscripts the diapering was used as an alternative to the gold ground primarily from the late 13th to 15th century, eventually replaced by the landscape background." - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
On this page we see it in Apocalypse (Latin MS 19) "Date of Creation: Third quarter of the 14th century"
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Another example - Apocalypse Yates Thompson "Sometime between 1370 and 1390" (Bonus cloud line..)
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VMS examples
I don't know about heraldry enough to comment, but these patterns are pretty clear I think that they relate roughly to the carbon dating / supposed date of creation.
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - Aga Tentakulus - 12-01-2026
Great pictures, Rich.
Note the vessels on the shelf.
And now to see it all in real life.
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - R. Sale - 12-01-2026
@Jorge: Because of the terminology, nebuly lines are most always associated with clouds. Rain comes from clouds, so that's close. In concentric, elemental depictions of Earth, nebuly lines represent air. Wavy / undy (Latin 'unda' = 'wave') lines represent water. Rayonny lines represent fire.
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In the VMs Bio section, a cloud / air interpretation works for two out of three. but the big green pool is a problem - whether it is an example of intentional ambiguity of something else.
Heraldic interpretations are found in the VMs zodiac tub patterns. Christianity is subtly referenced in the three crosses and a few other places. Haven't seen any drawings of feudalism.
RE: The Modern Forgery Hypothesis - R. Sale - 12-01-2026
@Bluetoes: IMO, heraldic diapering is that sort of frilly, semi-floral background patterning seen on the silver shield in the first example. The rectangular patterned background is something else - I think.
The patterns you've highlighted, if we borrow some heraldic terminology, might be called quatrefoils - four-petal vaguely flower-like designs. See VMs f67v1.
The origins predate the VMs.
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