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+--- Thread: How to square handwriting variation? (/thread-5005.html)
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - Jorge_Stolfi - 25-11-2025
(25-11-2025, 05:57 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.writing upward or leftward strokes with a quill on a surface that is not as flat as paper is a recipe for catastrophe. It's only possible if you are very careful: light upward strokes and thick downward strokes is lesson 1 in calligraphy.
What you write above is totally true, but I believe that most letters of Voynichese were designed to be written with two strokes. In particular, r, s, and n were meant to be written as (1) a downward i or e stroke, with full pressure, leaving a thick stroke with butt ends; and (2) a plume, traced lightly upwards and counterclockwise, ending in a fine "mousetail" point. Except that the two strokes of the n could be traced without lifting the pen, so they often became a single stroke with a curve at the bottom, instead of the expected sharp angle.
Many r, s, and n glyphs now look like they were traced in one or two strokes, but with the plume drawn in the opposite direction - downwards and clockwise. I have an explanation for those cases, but I am not allowed to mention it here...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - rikforto - 25-11-2025
It was not for nothing that I inquired about handwriting variation on the dedicated thread!
Whatever the reason for that dimension of variation, I too have a sense that the base goes down in one stroke, and the upward facing modifiers go up lightly in another, and that sometimes those were executed as a compound
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - ReneZ - 25-11-2025
When anyone is contemplating that r or s could easily be written with a single stroke, should this stroke be written bottom up or top down?
This becomes even more interesting with d, which can be seen as an s with an additional stroke.
The next step then is towards g and m.
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - Jorge_Stolfi - 26-11-2025
(25-11-2025, 11:12 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When anyone is contemplating that r or s could easily be written with a single stroke, should this stroke be written bottom up or top down?
Hm... to get ink to the tip of the nib, you must apply enough pressure to the pen to spread the two tines apart slightly. As @nablator said, you don't want to do that while pushing the pen in the general northwest direction. So, if the r and s were written in a single stroke, it would have to be top to bottom.
That would mean a broad plume with a butt end at the top. Sometimes we see that, but the norm seems to be a thin plume with a thin point at the top end.
Quote:This becomes even more interesting with d, which can be seen as an s with an additional stroke. The next step then is towards g and m.
I don't think I ever saw one of those shaped as if it was written in one stroke. In either direction it would mean pushing the pen to the northwest at some point. Then only one of the two halves could be a broad stroke, the other would have to be thin. But whenever I looked, both sides were broad,and the loop was thin..
All the best, --stolfi
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - Koen G - 26-11-2025
How do we define a stroke here? Obligatory lifting on the pen?
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - Jorge_Stolfi - 26-11-2025
(26-11-2025, 10:46 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How do we define a stroke here? Obligatory lifting on the pen?That is how I understand the word. The quill is off the vellum, not tracing, between two strokes.
All the best, --stolfi.
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - PoisonSix - 26-11-2025
To me, a stroke is when you put the nib against the surface and make a single fluid motion with your wrist, leaving behind a trail of ink (a line, a shape that can be formed in a single motion, without lifting the nib off the writing/drawing surface). This is of course just my own opinion as I do digital drawing - but that's vastly different from writing with a genuine quill pen that uses actual ink. Still, to me at least, this is the definition of a stroke.
When the writing is as tiny as in the VM your hand motions have to be careful and precise so the range of motion on your wrist is not very big here. Some scribes seem to have longer strokes than others. Not by much, the differences are subtle but it's there.
That said many factors can affect the writing. The nibs can start to wear out, one scribe may have better visual focus, slightly different way of holding the pen and so on.
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - ReneZ - 26-11-2025
(26-11-2025, 03:14 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think I ever saw one of those shaped as if it was written in one stroke. In either direction it would mean pushing the pen to the northwest at some point. Then only one of the two halves could be a broad stroke, the other would have to be thin. But whenever I looked, both sides were broad,and the loop was thin..
I also don't think so, but that is just an opinion. Nowadays, it is entirely normal to write an 8 with a single stroke. When I was 6 I had to learn it that way, writing with a metal pen dipped in ink.
Of course, writing was on smooth paper, which makes it easy.
In the case of the folio numbers, I am not so sure whether the 8's were written with one or two strokes. Not even whether it was done consistently:
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RE: How to square handwriting variation? - rikforto - 27-11-2025
Is there a good paleographic write-up of how the script was formed? I went looking for this some time ago and did not find it. And, either way, a discussion about it would clarify some things!
s: This thread was originally about whether or not strokes over s and sh all represent the same elements of the script or not. We might not all agree, but a description of the strokes forming other letters might offer a clue. (For my part: s are all the same letter, sh has a variety of modifiers over it; I'm working on exactly what I think that variation is and writing it up.)
n: If that is a minim and a swash, that would be evidence towards the hypothesis it is just an ornate i
g, m: There is a structural component to the debate if these letters are variants or letters in their own right; is that a descender or a swash? The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that y is a with a swash offers a suggestive parallel here.
d: It sounds like we don't agree how this letter was formed, what relationship it might have to other letters with an e base, and how it fits into the script.
I'm quite sure there's more! And deviations by the scribes (or, without triggering that debate outside its dedicated thread, anyone else who may have written on the manuscript later) may tell us something too.
I take Lisa's observation that there is no professional agreement and that this is a hard nut to crack to heart. But that's never stopped us before!
RE: How to square handwriting variation? - rikforto - 27-11-2025
Good example here of what I think of as the "architecture" of d, above one that has the more typical figure-8 form.
When I put one down in my handwritten notes, I (rightly or wrongly) form it as a ligatured el. This idea goes back to D'Imperio, and receives further support You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..