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+--- Thread: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record (/thread-5001.html)
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - R. Sale - 01-11-2025
The VMs 'critter' has had a number of potential interpretations and pangolin has certainly been one of them. There are, however, several problems with that identification. First, it is generally considered that the scales are on backwards and the long, flat tail is missing, *if* it is a pangolin.
More importantly, in addition to the 'critter' itself, there are two other artistic elements directly beneath it. The first of these is a nebuly line. As demonstrated in the VMs cosmos, the VMs artist knew the standard, medieval use of a nebuly line as a wolkenband (cloud band) and as a cosmic boundary, often found in religious imagery as a separation between the mundane and the divine. Why would a pangolin be associated with a cosmic boundary and what are all the little dashed markings below the nebuly line?
The answer is found in BNF Fr. 13096 f. 18. The critter associated with a cosmic boundary is the Agnus Dei and the dashed markings are the droplets of blood. Furthermore, the structural sequence with the lamb on one side of the cosmic boundary and the droplets of blood on the other side has only been shown in this historical illustration. Although produced in 1313, provenance indicates this manuscript was later in the library of the Dukes of Burgundy.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Kaybo - 01-11-2025
(01-11-2025, 03:41 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The VMs 'critter' has had a number of potential interpretations and pangolin has certainly been one of them. There are, however, several problems with that identification. First, it is generally considered that the scales are on backwards and the long, flat tail is missing, *if* it is a pangolin.
More importantly, in addition to the 'critter' itself, there are two other artistic elements directly beneath it. The first of these is a nebuly line. As demonstrated in the VMs cosmos, the VMs artist knew the standard, medieval use of a nebuly line as a wolkenband (cloud band) and as a cosmic boundary, often found in religious imagery as a separation between the mundane and the divine. Why would a pangolin be associated with a cosmic boundary and what are all the little dashed markings below the nebuly line?
The answer is found in BNF Fr. 13096 f. 18. The critter associated with a cosmic boundary is the Agnus Dei and the dashed markings are the droplets of blood. Furthermore, the structural sequence with the lamb on one side of the cosmic boundary and the droplets of blood on the other side has only been shown in this historical illustration. Although produced in 1313, provenance indicates this manuscript was later in the library of the Dukes of Burgundy.
That are interesting thoughts, but maybe a bit of an over interpretation? For me its a pillow. Valuable animals were presented on pillows in books of that time.
However, the pangolin was a very spiritual animal for West Africa. It connects to the ghost world.
All paintings are not 100% correct and more of a symbolic nature. They are painted from descriptions or from sketches that maybe only contain parts of the plants and the rest was made up. That is what you would expect from the first travel books to Africa at that time. Systematic paintings start a lot later, around 1500.
More context to African journey theory:
There are nearly no books left from the time of Henry the navigator today.
But in later books that mention the early roteiros it was always talked about books that were unreadable anymore, corrupted and therefore useless.
We have at least two sources that stated that:
„Crónica dos feitos da Guiné“ (Gomes Eanes de Zurara, ca. 1453)
"Décadas da Ásia“ (João de Barros ca 1552)
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Mauro - 01-11-2025
(01-11-2025, 01:46 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.More context to African journey theory:
There are nearly no books left from the time of Henry the navigator today.
But in later books that mention the early roteiros it was always talked about books that were unreadable anymore, corrupted and therefore useless.
We have at least two sources that stated that:
„Crónica dos feitos da Guiné“ (Gomes Eanes de Zurara, ca. 1453)
"Décadas da Ásia“ (João de Barros ca 1552)
If those works are available online, can you please post a link, and a quote of the passages which support what you say? If they are not available online, can you please post at least the quotes? And a translation of the passages would be useful too.
Don't ask us to find and read two books in Renaissance Portuguese to be able to check, please. As it stands, what you affirm is little more than an argument from authority which almost noone can vet (I surely cannot), so it has a value of about zero. With proper links and quotes that might change.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Kaybo - 02-11-2025
(01-11-2025, 08:50 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-11-2025, 01:46 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.More context to African journey theory:
There are nearly no books left from the time of Henry the navigator today.
But in later books that mention the early roteiros it was always talked about books that were unreadable anymore, corrupted and therefore useless.
We have at least two sources that stated that:
„Crónica dos feitos da Guiné“ (Gomes Eanes de Zurara, ca. 1453)
"Décadas da Ásia“ (João de Barros ca 1552)
If those works are available online, can you please post a link, and a quote of the passages which support what you say? If they are not available online, can you please post at least the quotes? And a translation of the passages would be useful too.
Don't ask us to find and read two books in Renaissance Portuguese to be able to check, please. As it stands, what you affirm is little more than an argument from authority which almost noone can vet (I surely cannot), so it has a value of about zero. With proper links and quotes that might change.
For example:
“E porque muitos destes escriptos são em letras antigas e confusas, não se podem bem entender.”
"And because many of these writings are in ancient and confused letters, they cannot be well understood."
(João de Barros, Décadas da Ásia, Década I, Prólogo; Lisboa 1552, f. A ii v.)
Digital copy of Décadas da Ásia (National Library of Portugal, Cota Res-266 P).
You will find the passage right at the beginning of the prologue, where Barros explains that he consulted older “escriptos.” This is João de Barros explaining the difficulties he faced in consulting older documents and sources (including potentially roteiros - navigation guides, and other old manuscripts) when compiling his historical work about Portuguese activities in Asia. He was referring to the challenge of reading old manuscripts written in archaic scripts that had become difficult to decipher.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Bluetoes101 - 02-11-2025
(01-11-2025, 02:43 AM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-11-2025, 12:32 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do joke with potential solvers sometimes "numbers!", as for some reason they think anything that can work must be right. List of numbers then..
There's no reason its not really, it would just be weird and probably not advance us in understanding (or be provable). Also as you say, if it is a cipher that uses a look-up book.. we are likely doomed without the book.
On the general line of thinking though, which seems to be reductionist, I think you may find this worthwhile to read - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. It's at least good food for thought.
I tried to understand some parts of the text in your link, but I think if it is a rule...why there are exceptions? But its the same with the cz (ch), sometimes the writer puts a dot (or something) on top of it and sometimes not.
If it was right, we wouldn't still be here talking about the mystery of the VM. But there is a lot to be learned from what has not succeeded so far.
If I could give any advice to newer people, it would be to learn from what has been done so far because years of knowledge can be absorbed in a night or two even if it seems flawed.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Kaybo - 02-11-2025
(02-11-2025, 12:19 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-11-2025, 02:43 AM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-11-2025, 12:32 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do joke with potential solvers sometimes "numbers!", as for some reason they think anything that can work must be right. List of numbers then..
There's no reason its not really, it would just be weird and probably not advance us in understanding (or be provable). Also as you say, if it is a cipher that uses a look-up book.. we are likely doomed without the book.
On the general line of thinking though, which seems to be reductionist, I think you may find this worthwhile to read - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. It's at least good food for thought.
I tried to understand some parts of the text in your link, but I think if it is a rule...why there are exceptions? But its the same with the cz (ch), sometimes the writer puts a dot (or something) on top of it and sometimes not.
If it was right, we wouldn't still be here talking about the mystery of the VM. But there is a lot to be learned from what has not succeeded so far.
If I could give any advice to newer people, it would be to learn from what has been done so far because years of knowledge can be absorbed in a night or two even if it seems flawed.
Thats absolut true. Do you think I can make a question thread? Because I think it will be nearly impossible to read everything here, because its very difficult to sort the useful from the not useful content. For example I tried to read the curated threads, but it often misses the information I am looking for. Like the best attempts of encryption or interpretations, even if they fail, that could have some valuable hints, but a lot are so far off, that I dont even understand what they are talking about. I also want to read this letters everyone is talking about. Is there an englisch translation?
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Bluetoes101 - 02-11-2025
There is a question to experts part, that would be the best place I think. (also I understand your frustrations. There's lots of ideas and some are not so great)
Yes, Rene's site is best. Letters and details (inc English translation) are presented here - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The site is a great source in general and I'd encourage learning what you can from it.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Kaybo - 02-11-2025
Ok, maybe I need to add some translation, I looked around now, what others have done ;-)
I came across the 7 stars Taurus word discussion on folio f68r3. The Eva transcript is doaro = touro in Portuguese.
I don't wont to complain, but why the copy and paste function is inactive. That makes it really hard to use the site. Also, is there away to attache files in the replies?
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - nablator - 02-11-2025
(02-11-2025, 10:13 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't wont to complain, but why the copy and paste function is inactive. That makes it really hard to use the site. Also, is there away to attache files in the replies?
Under the edit box where you type your reply, there is an attachments area where you can add files.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - rikforto - 03-11-2025
(01-11-2025, 01:46 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All paintings are not 100% correct and more of a symbolic nature. They are painted from descriptions or from sketches that maybe only contain parts of the plants and the rest was made up. That is what you would expect from the first travel books to Africa at that time. Systematic paintings start a lot later, around 1500.
This may be true, but it greatly weakens this line of evidence. If much f it is incorrect and up to interpretation, it will be hard to establish when we're looking at genuine information from an African [and swap out other theories being developed along these lines] voyage and when we're looking at symbols and when we're looking at the artists pure speculation. By all means, try and systemically prove which piece we have in front of us, but be aware that's the challenge in front of you.
This is hardly a new problem as it comes up every time someone puts forward the drawings as a launching point, but if you can just ignore inconvenient pieces as symbolic or inaccurate, it becomes pretty easy to fit the drawings to much of the world.