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Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - Printable Version

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RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - BessAgritianin - 15-08-2025

(14-08-2025, 10:14 AM)quimqu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it says things like "la vi ora fins la xi ora". Maybe it is the duration of the daylight (from vi hour until xi hour)
Thank You!
 If these notify the duration hours of the days, or the start end hours of a month, can you clarify what the words between the start- finish hours mean?

 Like : "filia";"la atorgans mesavy (not sure if I read this correctly)"; "allur"?

Are they in Language Catalan, Arabic, Latin or something else?

As I said earlier I propose a direct structural and thematic parallel between Catalan Zodiac and foil 67r1 of VM. 
They both share Lunar Mansions  (manzal al qamar tradition); star names; Arabic Source.
I think if this link holds, Catalan Zodiac, which is mostly very understandable, might help unlock f67r1.

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - MarcoP - 15-08-2025

There is a chance that the words in the outer circle correspond to the 12 astrological houses. The following is Claude.ai’s transcription from a random book with a list of the houses (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.,1681). In square brackets, the labels from the ms wheel, with month names for reference.

  1. (Vita, Life) Primam domum vocant angulum orientis aut horoſcopum, ipſaque eſt pars in qua eſt ſignum exortivum & aſcendens, & inſtituti volunt, in temperiem & conſtitutionem illius, qui tunc naſcitur, hinc etiam prædicunt ex ea de nati vita, temperamento, colore, forma, ſtatura, moribus & ingenio, quæ tamen ex αὐτοψία potius magis cenſent ſaniores. [Febrer Allur]
  2. (Lucrum, Richness) Secundam ajunt eſſe domum facultatum & bonorum mobilium, exque ea nati fortunas & divitias cognoſcunt. [Ganer Mefabus]
  3. (Fratres, Brothers) Tertiam domum faciunt propinquitatis judicantes, ex ea de nati propinquis fratribus & ſororibus. [Decembre Fent]
  4. (Genitor, Parents) Quartam domum ſic nati parentes aperit, corumque conditionem, nobilitatem, divitias &c. quæ omnia ſanè Notarius ex inventario ſelicius, quam ex ſidere Aſtrologus monſtraret. [Noembre Fili9=Filius]
  5. (Nati, Sons) Ex V. domo de nati liberis ſtatuunt. [Octubre …]
  6. (Valetudo, Health) Ex VI. valetudinem ſecundam vel adverſam hariolantur, Medico ex Urina certius, aut certiſſimè ex homine lecto affixi perſpectam. [Setembre Sedens]
  7. (Uxor, Wife) Domus VII. conjugem & matrimonium nati ipſa indicat.  [Agost Agit]
  8. (Mors, Death) Domus VIII. de morte hominis; [Julio Mrm9/Mrtu9=Morimus/Mortuus?]
  9. (Pietas, Religion) IX. de ejus religione, pietate & fide Aſtrologos informat. [Juyn Fid9=Fidus/Fides?]
  10. (Regnum, Kingdom) X. Genus vitæ, dignitatem, officia & functiones; [Magg Filia]
  11. (Benefacta, Benefits) Undecima nati amicos, fautores & benefacta; [...]
  12. (Carcer, Jail) XII. denique inimicos, invidiam, carcerem, calamitateſque continent. [Mars (h?)Abent]

Most of the words in the outer circle of the Barcelona diagram appear to be Latin, but the match with the astrological houses is really minimal, so it’s possible that the meaning is something entirely different. The best matches could be Death and Faith (houses 8 and 9) that seem to appear consecutively also in the Barcelona wheel (“morimus”? And “fidus/fides”, at the bottom). But there should be a single house for sons and daughters, while here we have two labels for “filius” (son) and “filia” (daughter) in opposite sectors of the wheel. “Sedens” (sitting) is a legitimate Latin word, but it doesn’t fit with the houses. “Allur”, “Mefabus” and “Fent” are totally opaque to me.

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - quimqu - 15-08-2025

I am a bit puzzled with some characters, mainly the g very simmilar to the Voynich. For example saturn, the planet for Capricorn and Aquarius. In Capricorn it is written "saturnus", but in Aquarius is written "saturiag". The "g" appeara also at the outer ring, at the low left position (november), where you have "filig" and oposite of this, at the top right position (below maig may) we have "filia". There are other words ending with this "g". 

Anybody knows what this character "g" stands for?

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - oshfdk - 15-08-2025

(15-08-2025, 12:20 PM)quimqu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am a bit puzzled with some characters, mainly the g very simmilar to the Voynich. For example saturn, the planet for Capricorn and Aquarius. In Capricorn it is written "saturnus", but in Aquarius is written "saturiag". The "g" appeara also at the outer ring, at the low left position (november), where you have "filig" and oposite of this, at the top right position (below maig may) we have "filia". There are other words ending with this "g". 

Anybody knows what this character "g" stands for?

I'm not sure why it's saturiag and not saturng, but I guess g stands for -us, similar to the following quire mark from the Voynich MS (which should read primus, as far as I understand).

   

I'm not an expert in these, but it appears there used to be dozens of common scribal abbreviations like this and hundreds of more obscure ones. There are people on this forum who know about this much more than I do.

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - Juan_Sali - 15-08-2025

The Catalan Zodiac of this thread resembles the one in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. attribuited to Abraham Cresques 1370-1380
Good quality images You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
   

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - BessAgritianin - 16-08-2025

(15-08-2025, 12:20 PM)quimqu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am a bit puzzled with some characters, mainly the g very simmilar to the Voynich. For example saturn, the planet for Capricorn and Aquarius. In Capricorn it is written "saturnus", but in Aquarius is written "saturiag". The "g" appeara also at the outer ring, at the low left position (november), where you have "filig" and oposite of this, at the top right position (below maig may) we have "filia". There are other words ending with this "g". 

Anybody knows what this character "g" stands for?

The variations between Saturnus and Saturniag ; also Mercury and Mercurig; etc is possible to reflect the dual manifestations of the planets in astrological aspect:

Saturn is ruler of two domiciles- Capricorn and Aquarius , according classical Ptolemaic astrology:
 
1. Saturnus in Capricorn- Malefic Saturn- cold, dry melancholic, death
2. Saturnus in Aquarius-Saturiag- Positive qualities- governs innovation, genius
 
So it may be continued for the rest of the planets.
Could it "g" stands for "j" as diminutive form?

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - Bluetoes101 - 16-08-2025

(15-08-2025, 12:34 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not an expert in these, but it appears there used to be dozens of common scribal abbreviations like this and hundreds of more obscure ones. There are people on this forum who know about this much more than I do.

I know very little but I believe this is how the primus is made up

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - nablator - 16-08-2025

"Earlier scribes tended to write the abbreviation more like a long 'z'."

These are actually two different Latin scribal abbreviations for -us (ꝫ and ꝰ) that could be used at the same time by the same scribe (but ꝫ is less common than ꝰ for -us), not the same written by different scribes at different times. The one that looks like a z or 3 (ꝫ) stood for -m and -et, -ost, -us, also qꝫ is -que: very ambiguous, but easy to disambiguate if you know which Latin words exist and are grammatically possible in the context.

ꝰ could have abbreviated something else in Catalan, I don't know. It's certainly not a "g" (written more like "8").

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - BessAgritianin - 17-08-2025

(15-08-2025, 08:38 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is a chance that the words in the outer circle correspond to the 12 astrological houses. The following is Claude.ai’s transcription from a random book with a list of the houses (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.,1681). In square brackets, the labels from the ms wheel, with month names for reference.

  1. .......

Most of the words in the outer circle of the Barcelona diagram appear to be Latin, but the match with the astrological houses is really minimal, so it’s possible that the meaning is something entirely different. The best matches could be Death and Faith (houses 8 and 9) that seem to appear consecutively also in the Barcelona wheel (“morimus”? And “fidus/fides”, at the bottom). But there should be a single house for sons and daughters, while here we have two labels for “filius” (son) and “filia” (daughter) in opposite sectors of the wheel. “Sedens” (sitting) is a legitimate Latin word, but it doesn’t fit with the houses. “Allur”, “Mefabus” and “Fent” are totally opaque to me.

Could it be connected to the names of the moon in its different phases- and the hours exactly when they are considered to start and end?
Arabic and Eastern cultures anchor feast farming and faith to the moon's phases.

RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - quimqu - 28-08-2025

(12-08-2025, 10:40 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the other page, it is probably about chiromancy (palmistry).
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Well, I found the other page (and the next ones). Here it is:

[Image: LNK7dCM.png]

In fact, the human body page is preceeded by 19 pages with this kind of tables.

Regards
There is a second rose in the manuscript. I post it here, if it is of your interest.

[Image: q16J4E8.png]