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+--- Thread: [Article] Lingua Volgare Shorthand (/thread-4513.html)
RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - RobGea - 02-03-2025
Partial transcribe of f1 and f2, not done what is think is EVA-c because not sure and not done ligatures because too lazy.
Note : EVA-sh -> 'FI' could also be 'PI' (chose' FI' for simplicity ) :: EVA-eee can be parsed 2 ways , this file is 'ee' always first.
This is my own work , i am not affiliated with the Authors in any way, mistakes are my own and there is probably plenty of them
Edit2 : Attachment removed , see below for new version
Note: Transliteration file file RF1a-n.txt can be found on voynich.nu >> transcr.html >> Table 12: links to the main transliteration files
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RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - ginocaspari - 02-03-2025
(02-03-2025, 05:41 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Ruby, just make one, i am part way through now.
@ginocaspari, thanks for your reply. Sorry, my bad. i did not check the vocab for it
Overall , so far anyway, i like it, the transcribed text still looks a bit repetitive but could be a style thing
and adding in more shorthand transcriptions and further decoings would probably reduce that.
I like the voynich glyph contractions also the fact that 5 of your glyph meanings match EVA is intriguing.
Unfortunately my Italian and shorthand skills are nonexistent, so i cant help.
Good job, nice work.
Thank you. We very much appreciate the effort to read and understand our solution. It does take a bit of thinking through it, especially if one is used to reading the common transcription systems. Certainly, there is a lot more work to be done with regards to correspondences and comparisons. But many of the abbreviations will be familiar to scholars who have spent a lot of time reading abbreviated lingua volgare.
RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - nablator - 02-03-2025
(02-03-2025, 09:16 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is my own work , i am not affiliated with the Authors in any way, mistakes are my own and there is probably plenty of them
...
e V
p U
m X
g RE
s TE
...
It should be:
e V/U
p X
m RE
g TE
s I
The benched gallows:
cph XP/F
cth CP/F
ckh DP/F
cfh SP/F
RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - RobGea - 02-03-2025
Thanks nablator, you are right , i had an extra char in my list causing an offset . I'm so gonna have to learn regex
RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - RobGea - 02-03-2025
Version2, fixed errors and added ligatures with thanks to nablator. :: EVA-c still not sure so not added.
V2_partial_planck_f1-2.txt (Size: 7.98 KB / Downloads: 97)
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RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - ginocaspari - 02-03-2025
(02-03-2025, 10:14 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks nablator, you are right , i had an extra char in my list causing an offset . <sigh> I'm so gonna have to learn regex
Here is a quick transcription I did just now for folio 1V based on the manuscript page. Note the potential problematic distinction between AR and N. This distinction is not visible in EVA because it depends on an often barely visible connection stroke. We believe a single N letter in the text stands for the the abbreviated word NON because they are often followed by a verb. There are lingua volgare comparisons for this abbreviation but we would like an independent third party to crosscheck.
RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - eggyk - 02-03-2025
Very interesting paper.
I am particularly interested to know whether any translations of the marginalia have been attempted, specifically You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
for f116v, "Nor (Pi/Fi)ve"
There is also a potential mix of plaintext and the use of the "re" suffix above on 116v. The 8-like symbol in "porta8" looks different to the other 8 symbols on the same page. Could this be "portare"?
And for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. :
Ocuvor A(re?/te?/??)
Seperately, are there any strong candidates for annotations that correctly translate next to images? I know that the paper began with "polar", but did you look through other annotations next to pipes, stars, or nymphs that further strengthen your case? For example, finding the word "Fire" next to fire, "wall" next to a wall, etc.
RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - MarcoP - 03-03-2025
(02-03-2025, 10:36 PM)ginocaspari Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.D(P/F)IE (P/F)OTMO OL OLC(P/F)UE (P/F)AR S(P/F)ARARE
E CVE (P/F)AR OR O(P/F)E T(P/F)O LDOTE ODOTN (P/F)OTE
TA? D(P/F)E D(P/F)OD(P/F)E (PI/FI)E TD(PI/FI)VE C(P/F)E DOC(P/F)OTE TAL
TAL (P/F)ODUO TM TARE IO (P/F)UE (P/F)ODOTE
This looks more like proto-Romance than any form of Italian.
The three short examples of "grammar" discussed actually do not conform to the grammar of a Romance language, e.g. the determinative article "o" is invariant like "the", rather than inflected by gender and number.
The system also features Gibbs-like flexibility. E.g. the first word of the first sample kShody can be made to match a number of Italian words and expressions. Some examples:
DP/FOTE
de piote "out from its clod of soil"
deposte - demoted
disposte - arranged
disponete - you arrange
dio puote - god can
dio potea - god could
dio pote - god prunes
da ponte - from [the] bridge
da fonte - from [the] source
di porte - of doors
do forte - I give strongly
dà forte - s/he gives strongly
di potere - of power
di fiorite - of flowered
deiforme te - godlike you
deformate - deformed
deportate - deported
RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - tavie - 03-03-2025
Two Italian solutions added to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.in 24 hours! But very different from each other, so thank you for that.
Your two main docs are much better papers than what we are usually presented with.
But weirdly, that makes me feel I expect more from your solution. There seems to be a disconnect between the level of confidence ("the key we provide here finally allows for an identification of the language of MS 408") with the amount actually translated, which seems to be only three sentences if I've read correctly. This is by no means unusual for a Voynich solution but you do seem aware of things like confirmation bias and insufficient evidence, so it feels jarring.
Three areas that came to my mind as potential issues:
Lack of translated material
You say the main problem is that none of your predecessors have gone behind individual words/lines and deciphered longer passages of text. It is certainly a key problem, if not the main problem. But I've not been able to tell why your work is different. Three sentences isn't enough to distinguish a solution from all the others.
You say it hasn't been shown before that a language proposition is effectively transferable to all parts of the manuscript. Am I misunderstanding this? It seems impossible to tell this from only three sentences. Or perhaps you have more than three since you mention others are in the Supplementary Info, but the excel seems to be only isolated words?
More sentences are also needed to grapple with one of the other key problem seen in all solutions: having too many degrees of freedom, which Marco mentioned. If you base the solution on abbreviation, isn't this problem exacerbated? If the text is meaningful, I'm personally very partial to abbreviation being involved (bearing in mind its other problems), but it does give your system a lot of flexibility. Identifying both context and more consistent trends of abbreviation would assist with this problem, but you can't do that with only 3 translated sentences.
I think this may also be a problem for your explanation on Claire's Criterion 3 (grammatical material). Three sentences, especially ones unrelated to each other since they are drawn from separate quires, doesn't seem enough to establish proof of grammar. You seem to rely a lot on isolated words, but I don't think they can demonstrate grammar without being read in a sentence. This is an issue we've seen in at least one other solution. For example, I could say that the qokaiin, qokain, qokedy, qokeey, qokeedy etc cluster represent different inflections of the Latin word puella. Even if I show a rough correspondence between the glyphs and the puella inflections, it's not proof of syntax until I can show that the plural genitive appears in a sentence where the plural genitive makes sense, and repeat for the other inflections.
Claire Bowern's views (separate paper on her criteria)
I appreciate that there is effort to prove the solution via what I think would be objectively recognized valid criteria developed by Claire Bowern.
But I'm concerned that - with this as the basis - for Claire's Criteria 1, 2, and 5, you write "Passed. Confirmed by C. Bowern in February 2025"
...and yet for Claire's Criteria 3, 4, 6, and 7 there is nothing of Claire's thoughts. Maybe she didn't have time to evaluate these, since they are the hardest to meet? But if she expressed any degree of doubt, given how this paper is set up, you ought to highlight that.
And I would expect at least some initial doubt from Claire Bowern on Criterion 6 (explain why Voynichese performs so differently from other writing systems on text metrics like entropy) in regard to the idea that the abbreviation/shorthand involved is a key factor behind the entropy values. Some of her comparison work of various texts indicated that abbreviations raised conditional entropy rather than lowering it.
She did caveat that this was based on the common known abbreviations, so is it your case that the ones employed here are substantially different from contemporary ones? Again, I'm not at all anti-abbreviation but quite a few people better informed than me have expressed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that it is even largely present, let alone the main explanation for failure of decipherment so far.
Line Patterns and other Voynichese behaviour
Lastly, my guess is that Claire was also thinking of line patterns when she set out Criterion 6. Entropy was just an example. I may have missed it somewhere but I've not seen explanations for any of the below:
- paragraph/top line behaviour: why EVA p and f are almost exclusively on top lines of paragraph. That seems to be "s" under your system.
- line-start behaviour: why some glyphs are disproportionately more common or rare at line start. Some like EVA ch show consistency in their aversion to line start across the top three scribes; some like EVA q show aversion in Scribe 3's Stars and attraction in Scribe 1's Herbal A. There are also the vertical impact patterns I've been working on that require explanations
- line end behaviour: why some glyphs are disproportionately more common/rare at line end, especially the final glyph of a word but also the initial and middle glyphs. And Patrick Feaster's work indicates it might only peak at line end - there are trends appearing across the line.
- first-last combinations: the existence of glyphs appearing disproportionately across a word break, e.g. words ending with y tend to be disproportionately and spectacularly so - followed by words starting with q, at least in the Balneological and Stars section. Emma and Marco have done You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on these kind of combinations.
- the excessive alliteration in Voynichese. You seem to be saying that "qo" means that/which. I did a visual (so very rough) count years ago of alliterative words. In the Balneological section alone, there were over 175 consecutive q-word pairs; 44 consecutive q-word triplets; 11 consecutive q-word quadruplets; and 3 instances of five consecutive q words. This is by no means the only glyph that likes to alliterate: initial o is just as bad if not worse, as is initial ch, and initial sh is no slouch either. It's definitely not a matter of a few isolated lists.
That's just some off the top of my head. Maybe your answer for some/all of these is abbreviation, but there are real challenges to grapple with if that's the case, and these should be set out and refuted.
tl;dr: please could we have more sentences, and an explanation for line patterns?
RE: Lingua Volgare Shorthand - MarcoP - 03-03-2025
Again about the first of the three “translated” “sentences” (Seven Criteria):
Quote:In the first sentence (3.1.1) according to the context, a reference is made possibly to a plant named "Nolie" (Nolia/Noglia), which has a direct translation in the lingua volgare as "boredom" ("noia" in Italian), but which we have not been able to identify.
The word “nolie” is unattested in the corpus of Italian, but the singular “nolia” occurs once (“Lamento dei Veneziani”, 1509) and it is believed to be a synonym of “noia” (boredom).
Here “nolie” is interpreted as:
- singular, rather than the plural suggested by morphology ("noie" is the plural of "noia")
- the name of a plant (which is 100% made up)
Words are assigned arbitrary meanings based on “context”. “Context” is circularly defined by word “meanings” which are either made up or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..