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+--- Thread: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v (/thread-2589.html)
RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - nablator - 18-12-2018
(18-12-2018, 11:52 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think ChenZhe meant, what are they in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? Not on every line, not on every page, it looks like there is a random number of "i" between 0 and 8 and sometimes a second "a". On f. 10v they seem to be merely decorative as they cover all the available space at the end of lines. On other pages they are absent (f. 9v, f. 10r) or present on some seemingly random lines (f8v, f9r). Weird.(18-12-2018, 06:53 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For the second example, what are those ain aiin aiiin at the end of lines? They seem not to have meanings, just some placeholders.There are many ideas for what they might be, mostly based on the fact that they are so frequent (e.g., they are grammatical "articles", or conjunctions such as "and", etc.).
RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - Paris - 18-12-2018
It's probably a mark informing a painter where paint a decoration, like in this example.
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RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - -JKP- - 18-12-2018
(18-12-2018, 02:43 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think ChenZhe meant, what are they in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? Not on every line, not on every page, it looks like there is a random number of "i" between 0 and 8 and sometimes a second "a". On f. 10v they seem to be merely decorative as they cover all the available space at the end of lines. On other pages they are absent (f. 9v, f. 10r) or present on some seemingly random lines (f8v, f9r). Weird.
Ah, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. they are line fillers. It's a way of "justifying" the line medieval-style. This kind of justification was sometimes done by greatly extending the tail of the last letter, sometimes with a detached embellishment, and sometimes (e.g., in English manuscripts) by lengthening several letters. It is also common in Hebrew manuscripts.
RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - bi3mw - 18-12-2018
(18-12-2018, 05:55 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(17-12-2018, 10:56 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also think that this initial stands for a letter. I would assume decorations of this type to plain text letters such as f, t, s or i, but not a, o, e or c. Both EVA-t and EVA-p are not open at the top. Maybe the "trick" was done with the rotation, and the decoration / part of the letter should actually go straight down (like other gallows / initials that are decorated with dots or dashes). Then I tend to EVA-t.
Hi bi3mw,
I don’t understand. What do you mean by “such as f, t, s or i, but not a, o, e or c”? I know that EVA-f, t and s are “tall” letters, while EVA-a, o, e and c are “short” letters. But why EVA-i? It is a short letter, isn’t it? Could you please explain in details?
In the example I meant Latin letters, not voynichese. For these letters decorations of this kind can be applied or, if closed, not.
This is meant by open or closed letters (examples, here EVA alphabet):
![[Image: gallows001.png]](http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mwille2/VMS/gallows001.png)
It is not surprising that all the decorated initials have been stretched horizontally, as this is the only option if you can not decorate upwards and do not want to decorate downwards. At least this way. An exception is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ( rotating loops ).
Example for horizontal stretch (filled with lines): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - MarcoP - 18-12-2018
(18-12-2018, 06:53 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For the second example, what are those ain aiin aiiin at the end of lines? They seem not to have meanings, just some placeholders.
Thank you very much for pointing them out, Zhe! I had totally overlooked them, but they are a nice example of dysfunctional decoration...
RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - -JKP- - 19-12-2018
I haven't specifically collected examples of justification, even though I see them frequently, but I had a few in my files...
![[Image: ScribalJustification.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ScribalJustification.png)
RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - Common_Man - 19-12-2018
Even if they're just decorations, according to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. daiin has 48 occurrences out of it's 1393 total (not as unique Vords, but including parts of Vords) on page 114r. What's even more scary is that [font=Arial]ain has 114 of it's 1717 occurrences on f111v. This many on a single page is really confusing (Is there a Voynich Vord frequency table resource anywhere?) So maybe it has some kind of meaning
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RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - ChenZheChina - 19-12-2018
(19-12-2018, 03:13 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I haven't specifically collected examples of justification, even though I see them frequently, but I had a few in my files...
Hi JKP, thanks for the examples. The one on the right-bottom corner seems to be another ain aiin aiiin.
It reminds me about something.
In Microsoft Word, if we create a Table of Content, the default space-filling character is “…” . Therefore, for me, it seems that the ellipsis has double duty: one as placeholder, or dysfunctional decoration as Marco said, and another as a mark for omitting something.
What if ain aiin aiiin are also something like this? dain daiin are actually two words both starting with d, but the former is shorter, while the latter is longer, like d--- d-----. Considering that a is appearing standalone not very few, and sequences like ain aiin actually exist, it is also possible that only i is the ellipsis mark. Id est, dain daiin are actually two words both starting with da.
If we are not counting composing characters like IPh or IFh, the i starts a word only twice, which makes it quite suspicious.
RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - ChenZheChina - 19-12-2018
(19-12-2018, 03:43 AM)Common_Man Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even if they're just decorations, according to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. daiin has 48 occurrences out of it's 1393 total (not as unique Vords, but including parts of Vords) on page 114r. What's even more scary is that [font=Arial]ain has 114 of it's 1717 occurrences on f111v. This many on a single page is really confusing (Is there a Voynich Vord frequency table resource anywhere?) So maybe it has some kind of meaning
Hi, Common_Man. Your worries are reasonable, but I think that whether frequent abbreviation / omission / decoration is confusing depends on both topic and how they are used.
Imagine we are reading an instruction about what we should do in each season or month in one year, and we use abbreviations such as Spr., Sum., Aut., Win., Jan., Feb., Mo., Tu., We. et cetera frequently, it probably won’t be that confusing.
Another possibility is that, abbreviations used in following pages have already been introduced on the first page of the quire. For example, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a special decoration character at the beginning of the page, which makes it look like a first page. Surprisingly, the page has no words ending in -ain, except one standalone ain: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(It does have words ending in -aiin and -aiiin, though)
RE: Rotating decoration on gallows f42v - bi3mw - 19-12-2018
@ ChenZheChina: Thanks for pointing to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , I see a direct connection to the initial gallows on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Here, the loops actually go halfway down (as far as possible).
I wonder why the scribe wanted it that way. The attached loops look really ugly. Maybe the included vords from the line have a special meaning ?
![[Image: gallows003.png]](http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mwille2/VMS/gallows003.png)