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+--- Thread: f17r (/thread-2062.html)
RE: f17r - -JKP- - 26-08-2017
(25-08-2017, 11:50 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Your post is saved as draft and users are not allowed to see it.
Oh!! I did not know that.
Thank you for the heads-up, Anton. I have fixed it (I think).
RE: f17r - Anton - 26-08-2017
Ah, no problem with the post itself, that's been just because your link contains the "preview" URL parameter. Thx Ruby.
RE: f17r - MarcoP - 26-08-2017
(25-08-2017, 08:46 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Marco provides the parallel with the "Herba Hochulus Christi" plant. I'm not sure why Segre Rutz identifies it with Lithospermum, because "Oculus Christi" is one of the species of Inula, and I guess this botanical name derives from some tradition?!
The eye in the root is a very good matching pattern, however the flowers are of a different colour (and, moreover, the real Inula flowers are yet of an altogether different colour).
I am sorry, but I messed things up with that post
BNF Latin 17844 has the Alchemical plant Oculus Domini at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Segre-Rutz' identification is about that plant.
The same ms has Hochulus Christi (should be Oculus Christi) at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..The BNF site identifies the plant as aunée (Elecampane, Inula helenium).
BTW, there is a third version (!) at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: Hoculus Dei, with hand-roots and eye-flowers. The site identifies it again with Elecampane, but it's a completely different plant.
I guess that when I posted that parallel I was not aware of the fact that the Alchemical Herbal often comes with a large set of more scientifically illustrated plants (likely derived from the Circa Instans tradition): that was pointed out by Rene here on the forum.
Anyway, the plant I originally posted (101r) is the only one that looks comparable with the Voynich plant. A proper identification would require some research. There seem to be a second Latin label in red (and one in Hebrew), but I cannot read it.
[PS: the red label re-appears identically in other plants; it is not a plant name, but some other kind of annotation ]
RE: f17r - -JKP- - 26-08-2017
It's a good example, Marco, especially considering how difficult it is to find parallels to the VMS plants.
The VMS drawing could be a reference to the same plant (there certainly are similarities), or it could be meant as a similar mnemonic (e.g., a different plant with a similar name, or similar morphological or medicinal properties).
One of the plants called Oculis Christi is Clary sage (Salvia verbenaca). It has opposite leaves and spiked violet-colored flowers (not puffs). The leaves are somewhat elliptical (not thin) and quite scalloped, and it has a tap root. I think the name comes from the way the seeds look when they ripen (little black dots inside a brownish tube).
Clary sage doesn't appear to match well to the VMS plant or the example you posted, but...
...there is another Oculis Christi called Sweet William (there are several species called Sweet William, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is one of them). It comes in many colors and some of them have a reddish ring around the inner part of the flower that makes it look like an eye. The garden versions have huge flower heads, but the wild ones have more modest puffs of flowers. It has You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. evenly spaced up the stem. It's actually a pretty good match for your example and for the VMS plant except that the flowers aren't as poofy as the drawings. Still... it matches in most other respects.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also has some features in common with the VMS plant (e.g., narrow opposite leaves) but it doesn't go by the name Oculis Christi, as far as I know.
RE: f17r - Anton - 26-08-2017
OK, so the "Oculus Christi" has been identified as Inula after all. The problem is that "Oculus Christi" in BNF Latin 17844 does not look like Inula Helenium at all. Inula helenium has yellow flowers and broad leaves. Inula Oculus Christi is closer in terms of leaves, but it has yellow flowers still. While I would admit that blue in the VMS and red in BNF Latin 17844 may be variants of the same thing, they both do not have anything in common with yellow. Since the "eye of God" is associated with at least three plants even in the same herbal, I think further attempts should be made to identify the plant in BNF Latin 17844, 101r.
RE: f17r - -JKP- - 26-08-2017
(26-08-2017, 05:36 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.OK, so the "Oculus Christi" has been identified as Inula after all. The problem is that "Oculus Christi" in BNF Latin 17844 does not look like Inula Helenium at all. Inula helenium has yellow flowers and broad leaves. Inula Oculus Christi is closer in terms of leaves, but it has yellow flowers still. While I would admit that blue in the VMS and red in BNF Latin 17844 may be variants of the same thing, they both do not have anything in common with yellow. Since the "eye of God" is associated with at least three plants even in the same herbal, I think further attempts should be made to identify the plant in BNF Latin 17844, 101r.
I agree with you, Anton, Inula doesn't look like them at all.
The leaves are mostly basal (thicker at the base of the plant and more cuneate), the petals of the flower are more discrete, like daisy petals, and longer (a fairly different shape and distribution from the puff on the VMS plant) and yes, they are distinctly yellow.
It's entirely possible there are more plants named Oculus Christi. There are also many plants with the word "eye" in them (in various languages), with ox-eye daisy being one of the most well-known examples. There is also an Oculus Maria (Myosotis) but it doesn't resemble the VMS plant.
RE: f17r - MarcoP - 27-08-2017
(26-08-2017, 04:09 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....there is another Oculis Christi called Sweet William
Hi JKP, this information seems relevant to me. Could you please link a source?
RE: f17r - -JKP- - 27-08-2017
(27-08-2017, 02:59 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(26-08-2017, 04:09 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....there is another Oculis Christi called Sweet William
Hi JKP, this information seems relevant to me. Could you please link a source?
Marco, I did about 85% of my plant research in 2008 and early 2009, so it may take me a few hours to find it, but I will try to get it for you as soon as possible.
If I remember correctly, one of the references was Mittelalterliche Pflanzenkunde by Hermann Fischer, but I'm going by memory, and I don't think this was the earliest reference.
In French it is called œillet de poète (little-eye of the poet) which has become synonymous with carnation plants in general, so Dianthus has a strong association with eyes.
Aster atticus is also called eye of Christ in French (l'oeil de Christ) but it doesn't match the VMS plant as well as Dianthus. Aster montanus is also called Oculus Christi. The name l'oeil de Christ also refers to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (spiny starwort), a yellow aster with a big "eye" flower, but it has whorls of leaves that don't match the VMS.
Hildengard von Bingen mentions Oculus Consulis (Liber subtilitatum, c. 1180) for Tragopogon (sometimes referred to as caryophlla or garyophilla in old herbals), but it is not a good match for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. either.
One thing I noticed about Eupatorium cannabinum (which shows up in old herbals and is a fairly good match for the VMS) is that it is sometimes drawn with long narrow opposite leaves, as in the following picture (left). That strange thing is that it doesn't have leaves like this. The leaves are in whorls and this image is from Curtis which is usually very accurate. It makes me wonder if there is a similar plant that is sometimes misidentified. The example in the middle, from Lindman, and the one on the right, from Esser, both have the correct leaf arrangement:
![[Image: 209440.jpg]](http://botanicalillustrations.org/ILLUSTRATIONS_HD_/209440.jpg)
![[Image: 131776.jpg]](http://botanicalillustrations.org/ILLUSTRATIONS_HD_/131776.jpg)
![[Image: 212171.jpg]](http://botanicalillustrations.org/ILLUSTRATIONS_HD_/212171.jpg)
RE: f17r - MarcoP - 27-08-2017
(27-08-2017, 03:05 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(27-08-2017, 02:59 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(26-08-2017, 04:09 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....there is another Oculis Christi called Sweet William
Hi JKP, this information seems relevant to me. Could you please link a source?
Marco, I did about 85% of my plant research in 2008 and early 2009, so it may take me a few hours to find it, but I will try to get it for you as soon as possible.
If I remember correctly, one of the references was Mittelalterliche Pflanzenkunde by Hermann Fischer, but I'm going by memory, and I don't think this was the earliest reference.
If you can find anything, that could be a good identification at least for Lat 17848 101r. Please, keep us updated!
These are two later illustrations of Oculus Christi (actually I can't read the second word of the manuscript, but it is so transcribed on the Yale library site).
The ms is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., circa 1500 f.8v
The printed book Gerard's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1636
Gerard refers to the plant as Wilde Clarie (clary) and the plant in the manuscript is likely the same, in my opinion. I think they can hardly be related with the Voynich plant.
RE: f17r - -JKP- - 27-08-2017
The one on the right from Gerard's Herbal looks like Clary sage (which I mentioned briefly in post 24).