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+--- Thread: Ruby's Greek Thread (/thread-3904.html)
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - ReneZ - 18-12-2022
(18-12-2022, 09:44 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(18-12-2022, 01:28 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The combination: classical Greek and simple substitution will not work.
I am aware that there is not just one 'classical Greek' but there is a whole range of languages and/or dialects.
They are all excluded.
But Ruby does not advocate a "simple" substitution or any specific language/dialect.
From what I have seen, it is not fundamentally different from a simple substitution.
There is just a lot of variability in mapping Voynich characters to Greek, which is needed to obtain a sufficient number of valid Greek words. That is characteristic of all similar attempts, by the way.
As an example, taken from Patrick Feaster's post:
Quote:3. daiin = των, "the" (masculine accusative)
10. aiin = οὖν, "therefore"
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 18-12-2022
(18-12-2022, 10:27 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is just a lot of variability in mapping Voynich characters to Greek, which is needed to obtain a sufficient number of valid Greek words. That is characteristic of all similar attempts, by the way.Rene, you could form an opinion about my work by visiting my blog and not based on someone else's opinion. What Patrick Feaster wrote did not come from my blog, he wrote it on his own, probably thinking he copied it correctly.
As an example, taken from Patrick Feaster's post:
Quote:3. daiin = των, "the" (masculine accusative)
10. aiin = οὖν, "therefore"
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - nablator - 18-12-2022
(18-12-2022, 10:27 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From what I have seen, it is not fundamentally different from a simple substitution.It does not preserve word length or entropy.
q = δ
d = θ/τ/δ
s = σ/ς/ζ
a = α/αι
e = ε/ι/ω/αι
o = ο/α
ee = υ/αι
al = αλ/αι
ol = α/αλ/αι
y = ε/η/αι/ης/ος/ως
ch = γ/κ/ϝ
Sh = κ/σκ/σχ
k = ν/μ
n = ν
...
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - pfeaster - 18-12-2022
(18-12-2022, 02:27 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rene, you could form an opinion about my work by visiting my blog and not based on someone else's opinion. What Patrick Feaster wrote did not come from my blog, he wrote it on his own, probably thinking he copied it correctly.
I see that I did make one glaring mistake: τῶν is the genitive plural definite article, and I clumsily confused it with τόν -- my Ancient Greek professor of thirty-two years ago would be so disappointed! Still, the point about agreement in case, gender, and number stands: daiin.chedy = τῶν ϝέτος (genitive plural "the" + nominative singular "year").
Here are the two entries clipped verbatim from your You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. corresponding to the pair of items Rene cited:
So perhaps you weren't meaning to identify [aiin] with the word οὖν, but only with its rare Doric dialectal variant ὦν -- a bit like the distinction between ϝέτος (or "γετος") and ἔτος? My initial assumption was that you were suggesting ων as a kind of hypothetical "bridge" between your transcription [aun] and οὖν.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 18-12-2022
(18-12-2022, 04:11 PM)pfeaster Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My initial assumption was that you were suggesting ων as a kind of hypothetical "bridge" between your transcription [aun] and οὖν.Patrick, I am not in a position to suggest anything in Greek, as I have never learned it. I am looking in the dictionary for words that may match the words in our manuscript. I am currently at this first stage and I am not yet ready to go to the next stage, to be able to read a paragraph with correct word agreement.
By the way, your example daiin.chedy only proves that the word chedy can have other meanings. I already have some ideas that I will put on my word list, which I update regularly.
RE: Daiin and aiin, to be read separately or as part of a word? - Ruby Novacna - 19-12-2022
I decided to add to my list the variant of daiin - θων and dain - θειν, participle and infinitive of θεω - run; shine, gleam. Until we can distinguish the different variants of the EVA glyph d, it would be fairer to test at the beginning of words its transcription as theta and tau.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - ReneZ - 19-12-2022
I just picked an easy example, but I could also have picked chedy and shedy, which differ by only a
curl above the first letter, whereas in the proposed Greek translation they are totally different:
Quote:1. chedy = *γέτος = ϝέτος, variant of ἔτος,
2. shedy = σχέδη (or Latin scheda),
This was also just to demonstrate the enormous freedom in selecting Greek equivalents of Voynich characters.
This was also very clearly demonstrated by @nablator:
Quote:q = δ
d = θ/τ/δ
s = σ/ς/ζ
a = α/αι
e = ε/ι/ω/αι
o = ο/α
ee = υ/αι
al = αλ/αι
ol = α/αλ/αι
y = ε/η/αι/ης/ος/ως
ch = γ/κ/ϝ
Sh = κ/σκ/σχ
k = ν/μ
n = ν
which is even more freedom than I expected.
To clarify: when I wrote: "not fundamentally different" from simple substitution, I still consider this to be "not fundamentally different". Individual cipher text letters are replaced by individual plain text letters, consontants (seem to) remain consonants and vowels vowels. There is a lot of freedom to play with.
That is clearly necessary in order to be able to match more words.
An alternative 'method' used by many people with a proposed solution, is to allow oneself to select words from several different languages. In this case: several different dialects.
Rather than translating Voynichese to Greek, in my opinion this is more like projecting Voynichese onto Greek.
I write all this without any animosity or negative feelings towards Ruby, of course. This is just my honest opinion, in response to the question whether it can be demonstrated that the Voynich MS text is not (ancient) Greek.
In my further opinion, the problem is not the language, but the method. Voynichese is so far removed from all European languages, that a very similar method would be required to match Voynichese to any of these.
In other words: as soon as anyone finds a method to bring Voynichese closer to Latin, the same method will also bring it closer to German, Italian, etc.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 21-12-2022
(13-12-2022, 09:54 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.After all, Greek was spoken in Anatolia, where Slavic language was a second language, and Greek was spoken in parts of Slovenia after the Roman Empire was divided. Greek and Latin was taught at schools up to the Second World War.Indeed, the fact of recognising Greek, Slavic and Turkish words in the same text is not surprising, professional linguists could explain this better than I could.
What delays the final reading of our text is, in my opinion, the difference in the alphabets used and the difference in the presentation of the results.
RE: Tsakonika - Ruby Novacna - 22-12-2022
As I continued to read little by little about Greek dialects, I learned that Tsakonian is not the only dialect that transformed the k of certain words into tsh, Cypriot Greek, for example, did so too.
Unfortunately I can't find dictionaries to compare with our text.
RE: Combination of pch glyphs - Ruby Novacna - 26-12-2022
A long word on 105v, consisting of two voynechese words and containing pch, which I have just added to my You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: olpchesd.araiin (1) - aphis8araun - αφιστορων, part sg pres act masc nom of αφιστορεω - observe from a place; explore, visit for information.