The Voynich Ninja
Crossbowman - Printable Version

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+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: Crossbowman (/thread-695.html)

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RE: Crossbowman - MarcoP - 28-08-2016

(28-08-2016, 03:49 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To return to the crossbowman, just to add some info to the thread, I remember reading somewhere that a very similar crossbowman has been depicted somewhere in Wurzburg. Unfortunately, I've forgotten the details, perhaps someone can comment upon that.

Hi Anton,
I am sorry, but I don't remember that one. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Wurzburg was mentioned by Elmar Vogt because of a similar costume, but no crossbow. BTW, I think the best matching costumes are those posted by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
[Image: voynich+devonshire+hunting.png]


What do you make of the fact that crossbow Sagittarius only from German-speaking areas have been found so far?
I have looked at a wide number of sources in different media and from different regions, but I could not find a single crossbow Sagittarius anywhere else. Do you think there is something that can be inferred from this kind of information?

RE: Crossbowman - Searcher - 28-08-2016

[Image: attachment.php?aid=501]
On my view, there is a very similar costume and a hat, and a crossbow, too, although another colours, of course.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1420-1340)
But "our" crossbowman doesn't shoot, he just keeps the arbalest.

RE: Crossbowman - Anton - 28-08-2016

@Marco:

Thx for the link, but what I referred to was definitely not this blog post. Although it may have been by someone who just infered his knowledge from this post, I don't know.

Quote:What do you make of the fact that crossbow Sagittarius only from German-speaking areas have been found so far?

I have looked at a wide number of sources in different media and from different regions, but I could not find a single crossbow Sagittarius anywhere else. Do you think there is something that can be inferred from this kind of information?

Frankly, I don't follow all discussions of Voynich imagery, but let's suppose that the man is a German sagittarius indeed (insofar as the term "German" can be used applied to 15th century). What next? How does that advance us in decrypting the Voynichese?

RE: Crossbowman - david - 28-08-2016

I think we can infer some important details from the crossbow depicted in the VMS, to wit:
  • It is a stirrup priming crossbow (note the semicircle below the arrow in the front where the archer puts his foot).
  • There is no winding mechanism; winding mechanisms were large enough (and important enough to be depicted).
It is, in fact, a bog standard mid 15th century crossbow. Look at these example from across Europe:
[Image: Le_Roman_dAlexandre-f30r.jpg] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Le Roman d'Alexandre c.1430 (depicting the siege of Tyre in Flanders)

[Image: assasination-of-owain-lawgoch.jpg]
assasination of Owain Lawgoch c. 1480 Note the soldier in the centre who is manually reloading his crossbow

[Image: Building_Jerusalem%27s_walls.jpg]
The bible of the duques of Alba (Spain) - a c. 1510 edition (note crossbow with stirrup left)


There is nothing special about the crossbow. It is a standard type of manual crossbow that would have been familiar to many. There is no attempt to depict it as a "special model".

But we can deduce some more from the figure:
  • The crossbow is cocked and loaded.
  • The figure is not preparing to fire it - his hand is off the staff, it is pointed carelessly downwards and he is not preparing to swing it up to his shoulder to fire this. The figure is as clear as a modern day one where a person is depicted loosely holding a gun only by the stock and pointing it downwards - it is of no immediate threat, even if it is loaded. He is a hunter, but hasn't spotted his quarry.
  • The dress is not military (unless it is supposed to be a Turkish or Oriental style of garb, but in this case why depict Saguttarius as a peaceful Turk or a Hun?). Not is it religious. It is secular, of a fashionable type for the European period.
The figure may not be a crib into the text. But I feel it is a crib into the mindset of the illustrator, who may have been given free reign to draw as he wanted to without the constraints of the textual project - he draws a secular person as Sagittarius, using a modern weapon for the period (as he has seen in local Germanic calendars, see MarcoP's et al research on this subject). It is as if we drew the Hunter as a modern day big-game safari hunter, with modern dress and modern weapons.

RE: Crossbowman - -JKP- - 29-08-2016

(28-08-2016, 04:04 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The 'crossbowman' thing has been around for ages. 

I understand that someone wanted to know about the maritime bow.

It's included in the full analysis of the image which I've posted as a separate page.

[deleted for brevity]


But arguing that the Voynich archer is German only works if you never look at a wider range of images for Sagittarius, whether that wider range is geographical or linguistic or chronological.

...


Diane, I take the time to read all your forum posts and do so with care and attention but some of the things you repeatedly say with great emphasis leave me confused. I don't comprehend your sources for these statements.

Over and over you talk about the German theory and German theorists and recount the specific assumptions these "German theorists" make, and I have yet to make any sense of who these people are.


Now you imply that someone is arguing that the archer is German and I have no idea who you are talking about or who proposed that idea as a fact (or as a very strong probability). I haven't seen anyone assert that the archer is German.

I feel I'm missing something when I understand other people's posts but I'm befuddled by yours because I don't know who these "German theorists" are. You always write about it as though there are quite a few of them and as if you have had lengthy discussions with them about their methods (otherwise how would you know what their working assumptions are?). Is there some mailing list or forum I don't know about where there is a "German contingent" to which you constantly allude?

RE: Crossbowman - ReneZ - 29-08-2016

(28-08-2016, 09:28 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.but let's suppose that the man is a German sagittarius indeed (insofar as the term "German" can be used applied to 15th century). What next? How does that advance us in decrypting the Voynichese?

Hello Anton, this is indeed one of many things that may not help directly in the understanding of the text.
The aim is more to pinpoint more precisely the place and time where the MS was created.
These are questions of interest by themselves, but, when answered they might also narrow down the
options for the meaning of the text.

RE: Crossbowman - Koen G - 29-08-2016

I agree that the archer looks "idle". This is not even someone looking for a target. One would almost think that some guy was drawn first and then they added a crossbow next to him. Is this a normal thing for Sagittarius? I would expect the opposite. Why an idle archer? He looks more like a guard having a pleasant daydream than a fearsome hunter.


The biggest difference I see with the other pictures is that the archer's shirt and skirt look like different pieces of clothing. It's not even clear whether he wears a belt. Most examples I see show one belted garment. 

The position of the hands is too imprecise to infer much, in my opinion. Is it normal to hold a crossbow at the end of the "base"? It looks very awkward.

The arms to which the string is attached are very clearly one uninterrupted piece of wood. The examples displayed here show what look like two separate arms going into the base. Either way, the piece of wood is interrupted. Is this an important distinction that points towards a different subtype of crossbows?

RE: Crossbowman - MarcoP - 30-08-2016

The "idle" Sagittarius could be an uncommon and interesting aspect to explore.
Here is a quasi-idle one (with crossbow) found by Darren Worley and published on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
[Österreich Nationalbibliotech Cod. 3085 Han.; date: 1475; origin: South Germany or Austria.]

[Image: 164161.jpg]

RE: Crossbowman - MarcoP - 30-08-2016

About the posture of the Crossbowman, I think it could fit with what You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. called "genre scenes". According to the Wikipedia definition, "genre art" "depicts aspects of everyday life by portraying ordinary people engaged in common activities".

In my opinion, something analogue can be seen in the exceptional Crossbow Sagittarius loading his weapon in Tübingen – Hausbuch – Md 2 (1475). Both illustrations seem to be inspired to something that can be observed in real life (very different from the classical and more common centaur).

[Image: attachment.php?aid=508]

RE: Crossbowman - Davidsch - 02-09-2016

aror sheey  = cerca trova  ?

The film Inferno is all about that.