f1v as Cloves - Printable Version

f1v as Cloves - Printable Version

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RE: f1v as Cloves - MarcoP - 17-08-2016

I have found two more images of Atropa Belladonna. Both are under the name of "fava inversa".
Left: Alchemical herbal BL MS. Canon. Misc. 408 (1378)
Right: Giovanni Cadamosto Vienna ONB Cod. 5264 Han. (1470 ca)

[Image: attachment.php?aid=465]

Observing the two images in the previous post, it seems to me that the general shape of the Voynich plant is compatible with that of the Alchemical illustration. The monster root and the large black berry are closer to Cadamosto's herbal (but the shape of the berries in the alchemical belladonna is a better fit). In my opinion, by combining these two illustrations, one gets a reasonable approximation of the Voynich plant. Possibly, the most prominent missing feature are the alternating colors of the leaves.

RE: f1v as Cloves - Linda - 17-08-2016

davidjacksonThe interlinear description comments:

Quote:Part of this drawing (root and leaves only) is repeated on Pharma page f102r1[3,2].

The plant looks basically normal, except for the very peculiar root.

And suggests

Quote:Atropa Belladona (deadly nightshade) , [i]Hyoscyamus niger (henbane) , [i]Solanum nigrum (black nightshade)

, Solanum dulcamara (bittersweet) , and perhaps other somewhat less likely species such as Withania somnifera and Physalis alkekengi. ETC[/i][/i]

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All of these plants in addition to Atropa Belladonna were suggested to be possibilities for Solanum Solatrium, being the suggested match by Petersen.

Quote:He says: "see L.Fuchs p.398". There is no "Solanum solatrium"; rather, "solatrium" is an ancient (Dioscoridean) name for some or all of these species:

Atropa Belladona (deadly nightshade)
[Image: fb3136fa2808f1f8f3d2b7a2256b906c.jpg]

[i]Hyoscyamus niger (henbane)
[Image: henbane-hyoscyamus_niger.gif]

[i][i]Solanum nigrum (black nightshade)[/i] I have this plant in my yard.[/i]
[/i] [Image: Solanum_nigrum_Sturm16.jpg]

[i][i]Solanum dulcamara (bittersweet) [/i]I have this plant in my yard
[Image: solan_dulca.jpg]

[i][i]Withania somnifera [/i]
[Image: 141253.jpg]

[/i][/i][i][i]Physalis alkekengi.[/i]
[Image: 235_Physalis_alkekengi_L.jpg]

[/i]None of which resemble the diagram at all to me.

However, when I searched "Solanum solatrium" I did find a page with several Solanum species on it which do more resemble the diagram: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[Image: solanum_capsicastrum.jpg]

But this one is supposed to be native to Central America.

There are over 2000 species of Solanum though, including potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, eggplants, and other plants similar to the photos above.

RE: f1v as Cloves - -JKP- - 17-08-2016

I'm not sure how Physalis became (historically) connected to Plant 1v.

Physalis alkakengi is very distinctive. It has little orange lanterns that form a cage that reveals the fruit inside. The "lantern" tips are pointed and they typically hang rather than standing upright. The leaves are pointed, petioled, distinctly alternate, and certainly not clasping. It has little or nothing in common with 1v except that it bears a round fruit.

Most herbals, even those with bad drawings, are usually able to represent Physalis in a way that it is recognizable.

RE: f1v as Cloves - Davidsch - 18-08-2016

Strange thing: many years ago i matched cloves not to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

[Image: f4r.jpg]

At least one other person thought that as well: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Cloves are the aromatic flower buds of a tree in the family Myrtaceae, Syzygium aromaticum.

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Nice german site: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: f1v as Cloves - Sam G - 18-08-2016

Edith Sherwood has 27v as cloves:

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RE: f1v as Cloves - MarcoP - 18-08-2016

Cloves (Garofoli Indiani) from Cadamosto's herbal (1470 ca).

In my opinion, the bulbous root of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not an optimal match to clove's roots.

I think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a good candidate for cloves. It would be interesting to know if the stem of the plant can be red.

RE: f1v as Cloves - Linda - 20-08-2016

(17-08-2016, 09:24 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not sure how Physalis became (historically) connected to Plant 1v.

Physalis alkakengi is very distinctive. It has little orange lanterns that form a cage that reveals the fruit inside. The "lantern" tips are pointed and they typically hang rather than standing upright. The leaves are pointed, petioled, distinctly alternate, and certainly not clasping. It has little or nothing in common with 1v except that it bears a round fruit.

Most herbals, even those with bad drawings, are usually able to represent Physalis in a way that it is recognizable.

I figure it was connected through being part of the greater family of Solanaceae.

Perhaps it was because of the fruit size indicated in the diagram is about half the size of a leaf, which is not the case with belladonna nor many of the rest of the species suggested.

I agree with you that it doesn't seem the likely species to be intended by the diagram.

(18-08-2016, 02:30 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Strange thing: many years ago i matched cloves not to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

At least one other person thought that as well: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Cloves are the aromatic flower buds of a tree in the family Myrtaceae, Syzygium aromaticum.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Nice german site: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I can see the similarity. But being a tree, this seems too small a plant plus the problem that the flowers are larger than the leaves.

I currently tend toward John TIltman's ID of cross leaved heath for this one.

[Image: erica_tetralix_dd3116.jpg]

(18-08-2016, 02:35 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Edith Sherwood has 27v as cloves:

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Quote:
(18-08-2016, 05:10 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Cloves (Garofoli Indiani) from Cadamosto's herbal (1470 ca).

In my opinion, the bulbous root of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not an optimal match to clove's roots.

I think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a good candidate for cloves. It would be interesting to know if the stem of the plant can be red.

Have you a good representation of clove roots? I had originally found some that seemed to match You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which is why I thought it was the better match, had originally only seen whitish stringy roots for belladonna but this was probably off a first year developing plant rather than a third year plant as they seem to be when roots are harvested. However I've since seen some other plants in the Solanaceae family that match well also.

Re f27v's root, I think it is a woody slice that has been transplanted, I don't think it represents a normal looking root for the plant. Again I can see similarities with clove but the leaves don't match.

(17-08-2016, 05:09 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have found two more images of Atropa Belladonna. Both are under the name of "fava inversa".
Left: Alchemical herbal BL MS. Canon. Misc. 408 (1378)
Right: Giovanni Cadamosto Vienna ONB Cod. 5264 Han. (1470 ca)

Observing the two images in the previous post, it seems to me that the general shape of the Voynich plant is compatible with that of the Alchemical illustration. The monster root and the large black berry are closer to Cadamosto's herbal (but the shape of the berries in the alchemical belladonna is a better fit). In my opinion, by combining these two illustrations, one gets a reasonable approximation of the Voynich plant. Possibly, the most prominent missing feature are the alternating colors of the leaves.

I've since had a reasonably good look at the entire Solanaceae family and I think there are better matches within it than Atropa belladonna per se, although I've since seen some dried specimens that more resemble the diagram, and even some with dual coloured leaves. If indeed it is supposed to be belladonna, I think it might be Atropa pallidiflora, just from the descriptions, as I can't seem to find a picture nor even a drawing of the plant. There is still the problem of a berry shown larger than life, unless it is another species. The sepals also still bother me, as they are generally more pointy and fall away from the berry as it ripens.

RE: f1v as Cloves - Diane - 09-09-2016

(15-08-2016, 11:01 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I keep seeing this diagram identified as Atropa belladonna. I can't see why, everything about the diagram is a mismatch with this plant. It doesn't have equal leaves, no explanation for the different colours, belladonna's bracts don't hug the berry, and they are pointy. The root is wrong, too, seems more like a tree or shrub root, looks like a calloused foot.

To me the Dana Scott identification of Syzygium aromaticum seems to fit much better than any of the other identifications I've seen reported for this plant (St. John's Wort, black nightshade, etc). The only problem I see is that only the clove top shows and is shown larger than it would be in comparison to the leaves. I think the largeness could be to show what part of the plant is used, where to find it on the plant, and that one is generally enough in terms of usage. The fact that it is not 100% obvious is perhaps an attempt to keep the knowledge semi-hidden from the casual observer.

Is there a better fit for this plant drawing? It's not striking me as familiar other than the clove top, and there is also the 'clavus' connection with the word clove and the calloused foot look of the root. But it's not perfect, so I'm open to a better identification. I find that a lot of plant diagrams strike me as looking like weeds I am familiar with in North America, but they are old world plants originally, but the ID of cloves would not fit that pattern. However cloves have been used for millennia, so I could see it as a known plant, just as we know it today, at least the part that is used.

Hi Linda,
Yes, Cloves is my identification too. I take the weft-faced woven fabric as reference to the type of cloth used for the clavus (not the purple stripe, necessarily but the Coptic patches). There is also a link, I thought (though Philip Neal whom I consulted about the Latin unguis may not agree) to that term, used of the raptor's claws or 'nail'.

I rather think that the form given the leaves again indicates a plant-group, not a single portrait, and my candidate for the other is the Madagascan Ravensara, whose leaves emit a clove-like scent and used to be employed as substitute.

Hooray - I have a second for the motion. Smile

RE: f1v as Cloves - Pardis Motiee - 07-03-2022

There are also similarities between Codonopsis and this drawing.

RE: f1v as Cloves - Aga Tentakulus - 07-03-2022

My view on the clove tree (clove).
From a purely visual point of view, there is actually nothing against it.
The leaves would hit it. The size of the plant would also fit the root, as the drawn root in the VM rather indicates something larger. The bud, when it has matured, is certainly similar.

The one problem is that it comes from the Moluccas (Indonesia).
According to the information on Wiki, it needs a temperature of 20-25°. At longer temperatures below 10° it dies.
This already raises the question of how a plant of this size can be grown if it would die here in Europe while still growing. This has nothing to do with the actual clove, which arrived here dried as a spice.

Question, could the person have seen such a plant in this size if he was not there personally? This is what you have to answer for yourself, and what you have to prove. For example, proof that monasteries actually grew this plant.

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