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+--- Thread: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) (/thread-5767.html)
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RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - Linda - 22-05-2026
There are others without ee but not too many, in different distribution than the initial one shown. Makes me wonder if maybe some pages are flipped or out of sequence and that maybe a better order can be found if this is indeed a thing. In the second half of the manuscript, ee appears to occur on every page.
RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - Bluetoes101 - 23-05-2026
(22-05-2026, 11:18 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some pages are completely yellow with "cc" words though. It feels to me like the biggest difference is between being full of cc compared to having 0, 1 or2.
Something like the ratio of tokens containing "cc" vs total tokens might be more illuminating.
I wish I had more to add, but it just sprung out as I was looking at something else and I thought I'd see if anyone thought it was interesting
Off the top of my head a look at ee and ch use could be interesting, does one go up when the other goes down (some pages join them and others not?)
Or, is the text like a bike wheel with a buckle, are there other kinks with a similar rhythm
I suspect Rob is right though the VMS text is very fun and interesting, but once you grab the shovels and dig away the results leave you with more questions than answers.
RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - Bluetoes101 - 23-05-2026
(22-05-2026, 09:23 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Same scribe and same language?
Unless it changed recently, yes
RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - Bluetoes101 - 23-05-2026
(22-05-2026, 12:04 PM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are only 17 occurrences of ee in quire 2. Their distribution is within the bounds of statistical acceptability. In quire 3 ( 78 occurrences ) the distribution is ~7.5 standard deviations away from would be expected if the words of that quire were distributed randomly. But you also get much the same with eo. And also with words ending y. See the attached simulations output.
But this is not unusual. Many similar distributions of many other parameters in many other sections of the manuscript all show a similar property of being outside the bounds of what would be expected.
( Data from GC transliteration. Paragraph text only. No labels, circulars, radials, nor any 'Pb' text, and with characters 101-C converted to ee ).
What are examples of other pairings showing this pattern?
RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - Bluetoes101 - 23-05-2026
(22-05-2026, 06:04 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are others without ee but not too many, in different distribution than the initial one shown. Makes me wonder if maybe some pages are flipped or out of sequence and that maybe a better order can be found if this is indeed a thing. In the second half of the manuscript, ee appears to occur on every page.
I think "ee" is more a "b thing" than "a thing" in general, but the way "a" goes about it is a bit odd.
I have no clue why this would happen but sort of interesting that it does
RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - BessAgritianin - 23-05-2026
The glyph you call "ee" is not a vowel . It is a consonant cluster.
It can represent "ce; "ec", "ch", "n" , depending on context.
Dismissing it as "apophenia" is avoidance to take time and understand the text.
It is evidence of handwriting variability - in old documents letters like "n", "u" ,"v" are nearly identical.
In VM -it may be by purpose, but maybe merely the handwriting stile with all the ambiguity that it entails...
RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - dashstofsk - 23-05-2026
(Yesterday, 12:16 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What are examples of other pairings showing this pattern?
See some output from my analysis program. For Herbal A1 pages in quires 1 to 7. For prefix Sh, suffix iin, character pairs or.
GC_20260523_075630_1.pdf (Size: 46.14 KB / Downloads: 5)
GC_20260523_075630_2.pdf (Size: 45.98 KB / Downloads: 4)
GC_20260523_075630_3.pdf (Size: 46.34 KB / Downloads: 3)
RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - ReneZ - 23-05-2026
ee is problematic in several ways.
It looks quite a lot like Ch and in some contexts the two can both appear (e.g. after ok ) but in others not (e.g. at the start of a word).
I do not see the alternation of 0,1,2,3 appearances on any page as unusual, but the sudden appearance of lots of them on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is odd. It might be worth checking if this anti-correlates with the number of ch or (single) e.
RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - nablator - 23-05-2026
(Yesterday, 08:38 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not see the alternation of 0,1,2,3 appearances on any page as unusual, but the sudden appearance of lots of them on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is odd.
Yes, any pattern that is rare enough to appear about once per page can produce zero/not zero alternations by chance, it doesn't have to be intentional. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are odd.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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RE: Use of "ee" in Q2-3 is weird(?) - Jorge_Stolfi - 23-05-2026
(Yesterday, 08:38 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not see the alternation of 0,1,2,3 appearances on any page as unusual, but the sudden appearance of lots of them on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is odd.
Actually that is the sort of pattern one would expect if the text on each page is about the plant depicted in the figure.
Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has three parags. In my transcription they have 3, 4, and 3 occurrences of ee, respectively. The word type cheey occurs once in each parag; qoteey occurs once each in parags 1 and 3. The other five occurrences of ee are in word types that occur only once each on the page.
Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has two parags and no occurrences of ee.
Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has three parags with three ee each. The word type keey occurs once each parag, and so does sheey (although once as part of otolosheey). The other three occurrences of ee are three words that occur only once each on that page.
Thus that clustering of ee seems to be due to certain ee word types that are specific to each page, and tend to occur once in each parag.
It is not surprising that a word that is used once in one parag of a herbal page would be used once in the other parags of that page too.
Coincidentally, the plants on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. look similar, and very different from the plant on f20v.
Thus the pattern above does not seem so strange to me...
All the best, --stolfi