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+--- Thread: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? (/thread-5735.html)
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - Mark Knowles - 14-05-2026
(14-05-2026, 04:13 PM)Jimmy123 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, as I say, there was certainly a fashion for writing in cipher at that time. Maybe, it made someone's manuscript seem more credible or respectable to others. Did Giovanni Fontana need to write his manuscripts in cipher?(14-05-2026, 01:51 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Knowledge that they wanted to keep secret. They were concerned to keep their intellectual property from being stolen by others. There were no protections like patents.
Ok but the images are right there, unencrypted. Everybody can see how to build that trebuchet looking thing just by looking at it. Professional engineers don't need IKEA isntructions for building trebuchet. So there is no point to encrypt the text "Step 1: take a screwdriver, Step 2: take 3 screws of type A". There is simply no point to encrypt these things if you can already see the diagram.
But certainly, intellectual property reasons were common.
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - Jorge_Stolfi - 14-05-2026
(14-05-2026, 01:49 PM)Jimmy123 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why they write an engineering book in cipher, though? What message must they hide?
The drawings show just part of an invention. Many details would be in the writing.
I presume that this page comes from a book about (real or imagined) military technology. Like what Leonardo da Vinci produced for some of his patrons. Thus it makes sense that the text would be encrypted, meant to be read only by people with the proper "clearance".
A prudent General should assume that spies promptly handed to the Enemy drawings of any weapon in his arsenal. But some key details may not be visible -- like precise dimensions and dimensional tolerances, materials, glues, heat treatments, ...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - DG97EEB - 14-05-2026
(14-05-2026, 06:55 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(14-05-2026, 01:49 PM)Jimmy123 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why they write an engineering book in cipher, though? What message must they hide?
The drawings show just part of an invention. Many details would be in the writing.
I presume that this page comes from a book about (real or imagined) military technology. Like what Leonardo da Vinci produced for some of his patrons. Thus it makes sense that the text would be encrypted, meant to be read only by people with the proper "clearance".
A prudent General should assume that spies promptly handed to the Enemy drawings of any weapon in his arsenal. But some key details may not be visible -- like precise dimensions and dimensional tolerances, materials, glues, heat treatments, ...
All the best, --stolfi
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"The manuscript may have provided the young Leonardo with access to Brunelleschi’s inventions and other technical equipment of the time (compare the design for a siege machine with a covered bridge) (121 ▲)."
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - Bluetoes101 - 14-05-2026
Cool find! Just having a browse through.
I think it pretty obvious to all what writing in an unsure way looks like from your examples. It doesn't match too well with the VMS text fluency (imo).
Images I found interesting regarding comparisons to VMS (Look to be related to cannons)
+ An image I just thought was awesome and worthy of note
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - Koen G - 15-05-2026
Why did we ever stop putting armored knights on top of basket lids?
About those vertical, slender constructions, what are they even? It looks like they each have a flame on top, so maybe lamp stands like you'd find in an Italian palace?
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - Bernd - 15-05-2026
Ghiberti copies a lot of designs from Kyeser and Vegetius, just like Taccola. But he has a much better grasp on perspective
Look at page 195
Compare it to the Rosenwald 6 copy of Vegetius' De rei militari by Roberto Valturio, (1405-1475). 2nd. half of 15th century.
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I wonder which work precedes the other. They appear to be roughly contemporary. And copying from each other. Like Taccola did.
The armored knight on horseback is clearly a bronze sculpture standing on top of a (likely similarly bronze or stone) sarcophagus that is mimicking a basket.
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - Bluetoes101 - 15-05-2026
(15-05-2026, 11:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why did we ever stop putting armored knights on top of basket lids?
I feel like my laundry basket is in need of one now..
Also, I think this is the only time I've seen work from this time where an entire page is blacked out and the page material used as the colour.. though I'm sure there will be more and I just haven't seen 99.9% of stuff..
(15-05-2026, 11:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.About those vertical, slender constructions, what are they even? It looks like they each have a flame on top, so maybe lamp stands like you'd find in an Italian palace?
They remind me of the Sforza hours
Looking again they seem to be around cannons, and also columns. Maybe Marco can enlighten us?
(Pages 59,60 and 91)
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - Jorge_Stolfi - 15-05-2026
(15-05-2026, 08:38 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ghiberti copies a lot of designs from Kyeser and Vegetius, just like Taccola. But he has a much better grasp on perspective
I can't tell who is the better artist, but neither of them understood what they were drawing.
Those are supposed to be well-known devices for lifting water (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.; but their shapes, placement relative to the water bodies, and the flow of water are all utterly wrong.
Are those images from original manuscripts by Ghiberti, Taccola, etc? Or from copies thereof, made by mindless scribes?
All the best, --stolfi
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - MarcoP - 16-05-2026
(15-05-2026, 10:19 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-05-2026, 11:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.About those vertical, slender constructions, what are they even? It looks like they each have a flame on top, so maybe lamp stands like you'd find in an Italian palace?
They remind me of the Sforza hours
Looking again they seem to be around cannons, and also columns. Maybe Marco can enlighten us?
(Pages 59,60 and 91)
I cannot add much to what others wrote above. The Florentine Bonaccorso Ghiberti was descended from the much more famous You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., whose bronze workshop he presumably inherited. His notebook appears to mostly be about bronze works.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. describes similar vertical objects as “candelabra”, though I cannot see any candles, so “lamp stands” as suggested by Koen could be a better term. Given their shape, the objects were often used to fill vertical space as decorations, but I think Bonaccorso was designing actual objects to be cast in bronze. The text in the margins of f.91r is unrelated; it’s about the two “rockets” (“razzi”) also illustrated in the margin, I am not sure if these are meant as mere fireworks or for military usage.
56r appears to be an architectural detail, possibly for the building on the previous page.
The text in cipher and plaintext says where the details are meant to be placed and gives a few measures.
The knight’s tomb belongs to the tradition of monuments to military leaders derived from the bronze statue of Marcus Aurelius. The 1436 fresco portrait of Giovanni Acuto (John Hawkwood) is by Paolo Uccello, who began his artistic career in Lorenzo Ghiberti’s workshop.
RE: This encyphered engineering book is interesting, maybe? - Bernd - 16-05-2026
(15-05-2026, 10:41 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Taccola made much more mistakes regarding perspective that Ghiberti. And you are right, most of the drawings don't make any sense, but that's not a problem - just like in herbals. I've made a thread about Vegetius (the source of all the military literature) and the implications here:(15-05-2026, 08:38 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ghiberti copies a lot of designs from Kyeser and Vegetius, just like Taccola. But he has a much better grasp on perspectiveI can't tell who is the better artist, but neither of them understood what they were drawing.
Those are supposed to be well-known devices for lifting water (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.; but their shapes, placement relative to the water bodies, and the flow of water are all utterly wrong.
Are those images from original manuscripts by Ghiberti, Taccola, etc? Or from copies thereof, made by mindless scribes?
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The question is - who invented those (often nonsensical) illustrations? The original work is from Vegetius but it was not illustrated. The earliest illustrations are vom Konrad Kyeser's 'Bellifortis', followed by Taccola. My guess is the war machines came from Kyeser while the water lifting devices are from Taccola. But I am far from certain. It's complicated since the illustrations in manuscripts and later printed editions appear to have copied from each other.