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+--- Thread: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v (/thread-5246.html)
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - JustAnotherTheory - 17-01-2026
Thanks @Koen. Following your analysis, I checked some Latin manuscripts for the first word of the sentence, "mollior" (soft/softer in Latin, although I'm not a very good Latin speaker so feel free to correct me). I found something that also closely ressembles the VMS calligraphy:
Look at the version in the VMS:
The above example is from a 1422 manuscript called "Expositio missae" (BSB Clm 14310). You can find a scan here:
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Could this marginalia be in Latin? We would have "mollior all?r lucem".
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - JoJo_Jost - 17-01-2026
@ Koen, you're probably right.
And thank you for the sentence: Latin paleography is not just a guessing game. As always, very kind.
The question for me was whether it was a 3 at the end or a three-shaped line. That means ‘is’.
But the macron indicates a forgotten letter, and since ‘is’ is already ‘is’ with an ‘i’, it doesn't need a macron. That suggests that it is a 3, which could also be called an “m” and that the ‘e’ was omitted. But i know lucem actually be abbreviated to lucē. That led me astray with the above abbreviation.
And from the context, sorry, both variants are grammatically possible – as I understand it.
So it's not that simple...
But as for the luc3 from f17v, the macron is missing. If it is german, than the 3 is possibly a "z", if it is latin, then, without makron, it has to be lucis or semthing else.
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - nablator - 17-01-2026
(17-01-2026, 11:40 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The question for me was whether it was a 3 at the end or a three-shaped line. That means ‘is’.
Only in some (horrible) fonts, not in manuscripts. The unicode character for "is" endings is "ꝭ", it should be displayed with a loop.
In the context "lumen" would be possible, but the abbreviation is weird with the rotated "m" after the "e".
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - PeteClifford - 17-01-2026
An idea just occurred to me in relation to the marginalia, and I thought I’d mention it here since I don’t recall it being discussed previously.
In Samuel Pepys’s diaries (250 years or so later, of course), certain sections of the text are written in what scholars call “polyglot”, i.e. a mix of languages (French, Spanish, Latin, Greek etc.) to add an extra layer of obfuscation. This particularly applies to sections describing Pepys’s sexual adventures/misconduct.
So, perhaps something similar is occurring here in the marginalia, and we are failing to identify the original language with any confidence because the text is deliberately obscured by employing a mix of languages - including Voynichese???
An example of polyglot from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - Bluetoes101 - 17-01-2026
It has been considered, I think the problem is that it still doesn't make sense. Even if a mix, each word should still belong to one place.
There's also the fact also that some places had multiple languages, so mixing would not be a "trick" but just what they did. Maybe a linguist could correct me there if wrong.
We still have plenty of foreign words in English today for example.
Or, a while back I went on a "boys holiday" to Brussels to tour the breweries, especially You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I have a habit of learning a little of the language whenever I go anywhere, just "hello", "please", "thank you" etc, I asked the guys what language they speak, the answer was "well...."
So unfortunately everyone got English.The same naturally multi-language(ness?) can be said of Switzerland and I'd imagine as you travel back through the years, many places were a bit of a melting-pot of influences.. though I don't think someone (modern example) would say "eine" as a mix of "one" and "eins", so we would be able to see "one" and then maybe "Apfel" and think that's a bit odd, they used English "one" and German "apple".. but what we have is words that seem to make no sense wherever you look, or if we can make a word(s) the sentence makes no sense.
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - JoJo_Jost - 18-01-2026
@ nabulator
You mean this form: Ꝭ , i think -
And this became the "line" described above in handwritten manuscripts, especially in the bastards of the 15th century, due to the lead of the quill - But whatever
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - MarcoP - 18-01-2026
(17-01-2026, 10:19 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think "lucem" has been discussed before, but as nablator says, you found an unusually close version of it. It's the first letter of the VM word that's tricky though. You have the loop that closes, but below that is something else that's badly faded. This is usually where the difference between L and K is made. K would point to German, where "aller" is extremely frequent. But I wouldn't know what to make of "all?r lucem" in Latin. I assume it's best to keep both options open.
Yes Koen, we discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ten years ago.
We also discussed the fact that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (“lucem” is the accusative) also means “eyesight, the eyes”, and the plant in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. appears to have You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
But I agree with you that the first letter looks like ‘k’, so no light at the end of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. tunnel yet.
(16-01-2026, 09:17 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: Lumen [enim] spirituale est magis communicabile quam lumen corporale.
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - JoJo_Jost - 18-01-2026
I have come to agree with Aga Tentakulus that it is not Latin but German, specifically from southern Germany, Austria.
1. I have already proven that the last word could mean "volkomn ist" ‘to be perfect’. (Note: volkomn without ‘ist’ was brought into play by Aga Tentakulus).
2. If one were to read the first letter of luc3 this L as an f (because there is still a stroke indicated), it could mean ‘fuez’ with makron = fuezen = feet (plural) (The 3 is in German a typical z)
There are examples of this, even with ‘her’
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Translation: "There are also people who have their heels turned forward from their feet."
3. This also proves that the german ‘her’ does not have to be a directional adverb (“here”) here, but is a prepositional particle with the meaning "von … aus / hinsichtlich / her gesehen" = "seen from / with regard to". This is a completely normal Middle High German construction, especially in descriptions of the body, characteristics or states.
4. allar / aller = ‘completely, utterly, in every respect’ serves to reinforce superlatives
Source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.- [Forwarding the link does not work correctly; you have to copy and paste it to see the meaning]
And then it would say -
Mullier allar fuez her volkomn ist
Die Frau die von den Füßen her gänzlich vollkommen ist.
translated:
The woman who is completely perfect from her feet up.
In German, we still say today: A person is ‘von Kopf bis Fuß vollkommen’ (from head to foot perfect) and that could also be meant here.
Although this seems to fit reasonably well, the content would of course be more than questionable – what is the point of such a sentence in the margin of a recipe or similar? Marginalia do exist as ‘love texts’, but more often in texts of romantic prose.
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - MarcoP - 18-01-2026
(16-01-2026, 08:01 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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I can confirm "lucem". In the clip I posted above, the line is even more concentrated on the "c3" part.
So I assume the word in the VM can be read as lucem, but only if we are willing to ignore that the first letter is "k"....
This must also be "lumen" (neuter) because the next word is "suum".
If it were "lucem" (feminine) it would be "lucem suam".
The meaning is the same ('light' but also 'the eyes').
cum sol oritur, sidera non admittunt lumen suum sed obscurantur et disparent
when the sun rises, the stars do not tolerate its light, but are obscured and disappear
Lumen also is a better fit for the macron, which stands for the missing 'm', while the final 3 appears to stand for -n. See this entry for "flumen" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.):
RE: On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v - JoJo_Jost - 18-01-2026
@ marco But then the macron is in the wrong position.