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+--- Thread: 70v - Clothing (/thread-5027.html)
RE: 70v - Clothing - R. Sale - 07-11-2025
There has been some earlier investigation on this. The structure on the triangular points is indicative of what is called an Eastern Crown. Other historical examples use different ornamentation.
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RE: 70v - Clothing - Jorge_Stolfi - 07-11-2025
(07-11-2025, 05:51 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Although I foresee some issues with retracers
There is no such issue here. That crown was definitely added by the last Retracer on blank vellum.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: 70v - Clothing - Bluetoes101 - 07-11-2025
(07-11-2025, 05:39 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I believe there is evidence that the paint was applied after most of the "restoration"/retracing rounds. When the Painter ran over a figure outline with his brush, it often looks like the paint dissolved the ink and either push it aside or washed it off completely.
All the best, --stolfi
What I meant was that maybe the paint makes us have a different interpretation of what was meant in places. (maybe misleading us the viewer, rather than whoever did the ink)
For example if the person just decided to paint a dress red, the solid red (caused by crude paint) makes us think of a thick materials.
Or maybe a better example is blue blocks next to blocks with stars, one interpretation could be that the blue is the sky, another might be it is the sea.. or others, but really we can;t tell much but "blue" because of the crude nature of the application.
But yeah, I'd agree the paint looks like the final step in completing an image in the MS.
RE: 70v - Clothing - R. Sale - 07-11-2025
Looking at the 'headgear' in Post #8 as it was drawn on the page, there are two apparent facts. It is an Eastern crown with pointed palisades and it has the imperial 'basket' on top. So, name an eastern empire relevant to the C-14 dates. The Holy Roman Empire. Then name a woman who was an empress during that era. First on the list still seems to be Barbara of Cilli.
The medieval illustrations of Barbara of Cilli show her with a different style of crown; one where the palisades are shaped like three-leafed clover or the upper stem part of a heraldic cross botany. The problem with this version of a crown is that it was more widely used, like the fleur-de-lis, and if used in the VMs, would seem to be less accurate in designating a specific person as an HRE empress.
Nymphs in the VMs may be identified by their attributes, be it a cosmic spindle or a green dress - as long as we can identify their attributes.
RE: 70v - Clothing - Bluetoes101 - 07-11-2025
I think, as per my earlier post, trying to find a person is probably several leaps of faith too many. Along with supposing "female".
But likely the style of crown can be placed. I have a pretty ok candidate.
To me, the general vibe is - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The features it shows depict the import/rank of the person, as you can see on the wiki the addition of the top part has a correlation with rank in many different European countries.
I'm working on a time-line for a possible candidate, I'll post a thread when I've had time to do it properly. If others want to chip in (with other decent candidates) we might be able to draw some times, hopefully at least "from" can be agreed on for the overall style.
RE: 70v - Clothing - Aga Tentakulus - 08-11-2025
I see it differently.
If there was a tracing, then there was also a preliminary sketch. This can be seen from the double zigzags (marked). In terms of colour, it was sketched in pencil (double lines). Ergo, it already had a crown before the tracing.
The crown is typical of the Habsburgs. This applies to all three crowns.
RE: 70v - Clothing - Jorge_Stolfi - 08-11-2025
(07-11-2025, 10:29 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is an Eastern crown with pointed palisades and it has the imperial 'basket' on top. So, name an eastern empire relevant to the C-14 dates. The Holy Roman Empire. Then name a woman who was an empress during that era. First on the list still seems to be Barbara of Cilli.
But the point is that the crown is most likely a late addition, not part of the original drawing. So what we need is the range of dates and places where someone who decided to crown a naked nymph would draw that type of crown.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: 70v - Clothing - Jorge_Stolfi - 08-11-2025
(08-11-2025, 01:54 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If there was a tracing, then there was also a preliminary sketch. This can be seen from the double zigzags (marked). In terms of colour, it was sketched in pencil (double lines). Ergo, it already had a crown before the tracing.
The traces of the first two arrows are not pencil but the same dark ink of the last Retracer (who also added the goggle-eyes and messed with the right breast, hairline, pubis, right leg..)
The last two arrows may indeed be faded original traces. But even so, we cannot tell what sort of crown it was originally.
In general, I do not see any sign of pencil sketching anywhere. There are many parts of the outlines, and even glyphs in the text, that are even fainter than those "pencil" traces in the crown; but they often connect gradually and seamlessly to stronger traces that are clearly in ink. Thus I think it is fair to assume that all traces are in ink, and that the faint ones are either places where the pen ran dry or where the ink has faded a lot.
Quote:The crown is typical of the Habsburgs.
That is great, a good match indeed! When and where were those crowns used?
But from the limited sources I have seen so far, the kings and princes of many other European nations used similar crowns.
Quote:This applies to all three crowns.
The crown of f72v3 (Leo), inner band, 03:00 is lacking the "basket" and cross. I gather that it would mean a nobility grade below queen or princess? It also seems to be an earlier Retracer, although even the usually dark traces of the "Right Breasts" Retracer are somewhat faded on that page.
Which would be the third crown? In the Bio section?
All the best, --stolfi
RE: 70v - Clothing - Jorge_Stolfi - 08-11-2025
(07-11-2025, 11:45 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But likely the style of crown can be placed. I have a pretty ok candidate. To me, the general vibe is - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thanks! The good news is that the crown of f72v1 is definitely that of a Queen or Princess. The bad news is that similar crowns were used all over Europe.
The key information is WHEN those crowns were in use. If they are later than the 15th century, it would provide a lower bound for the date of those interventions. Or maybe just exclude some countries.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: 70v - Clothing - Aga Tentakulus - 08-11-2025
Crowns were certainly found everywhere, but they have distinctive features. Examples:
France/lily, Italy/cloverleaf, Habsburg with jagged edges or teeth, another with a stingray.
Examples of Habsburg. Many at Vienna Cathedral. Originals are in the archive.
I don't care what you see there, it's clear to me that the crown was there and was sketched in pencil by the author.