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+--- Thread: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online (/thread-4917.html)
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RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - ReneZ - 10-09-2025
It is interesting to entertain the thought that, somewhere, in some library or archive, there is a manuscript that sheds some real light into the mystery of the Voynich MS. I consider this to be entirely possible, but the world has not yet seen anything that qualifies as 'shedding real light ...'.
Such a manuscript does not have to be a book. It may be a single page, or some notes or drawings inside some other volume. I just write manuscript, because it would have to be something hand-written.
I can see two possibilities how such an item could be found:
1) A Voynich enthousiast actively searching for it and finding it
2) A general researcher, looking for something else, stumbling upon it and recognising its connection with the Voynich MS
I guess we can all dream about being the one in option (1), but there's a bit of a catch. If we search online, we are looking at things that have already been browsed by many (many) thousands of people. This does not mean that it is not a good idea. I can only recommend it. I personally got a much better appreciation for the Voynich MS illustrations after having looked at many online digital scans of medieval manuscripts. In particular herbals.
If anyone decides to actually go out and search in libraries and archives, the situation may seem different, but it is only so in a quantitative way. We are entirely unlikely to look at items that have not already been seen by scores of earlier researchers.
Of course, these may have 'missed' the connection with the Voynich MS ...
For me that is an interesting question. What is the chance that something was already studied, but was not recognised as being an important piece of evidence related to the Voynich MS?
The chance of that is decreasing rapidly as time goes by, because the Voynich MS has become much better known, generally, in recent times.
In summary, the best chance for such a discovery is with historians doing their own research, and the more publicity the Voynich MS gets, the more it will help.
Given that it hasn't happened yet, chances of it ever happening are decreasing fast. But they are still there.
RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - Koen G - 10-09-2025
I think the chance is high that some known and digitized manuscripts have relevance for the VM, but this relevance hasn't been noticed yet. But then I'm thinking about something relatively small, like an illuminating parallel for an image. Not a page of Voynichese text or something like that.
When it comes to archives, I have two questions. Not rhetorical ones - actual questions.
One is about the Vatican archives. What is in there, how much is "hidden", how much is digitized, how well-known are these scans? How accessible is it to researchers, and how many manuscripts are there that have not been touched by anyone who had Voynichese in their accessible memory?
Second is smaller archives, libraries and collections. How many are there in potentially relevant areas that escape digitization? How often are these manuscripts looked at? How many manuscripts are sitting there that have been unopened during the last 50 years?
Either way, I think it's unlikely that a Voynich researcher will find something unless they're looking with purpose. For example, if I knew a library in a German-speaking region had undigitized illustrated Hausbuchs, I would probably say that's worth a trip, with a moderate chance of finding some interesting images.
But to find Voynichese in another manuscript - where would we even start looking? What would guide our efforts? Say you're in a library with 10,000 undigitized and barely catalogued manuscripts, how do you proceed? I honestly don't know.
RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - Jorge_Stolfi - 10-09-2025
(10-09-2025, 04:41 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is interesting to entertain the thought that, somewhere, in some library or archive, there is a manuscript that sheds some real light into the mystery of the Voynich MS.
It would be great, but I fear that the search universe is too big for such document to be found by accident. The best chance, I think, is that sleuths like you can trace the VMS back in time to its author, or at least to the town where he lived. Then we may canvass the local libraries and archives, and the papers of those who may have interacted with him...
The VMS survived mostly thanks to one lucky accident: Barschius writing to Kircher and getting him interested enough to want to get it. Otherwise the manuscript would probably have remained in Prague after Barchius death. It may have sat "uselessly gathering dust on the shelf" of another obscure owner or two, and then discarded to make way for a bowl of petunias...
All the best, --jorge
RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - ReneZ - 11-09-2025
(10-09-2025, 05:12 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The VMS survived mostly thanks to one lucky accident: Barschius writing to Kircher and getting him interested enough to want to get it. Otherwise the manuscript would probably have remained in Prague after Barchius death. It may have sat "uselessly gathering dust on the shelf" of another obscure owner or two, and then discarded to make way for a bowl of petunias...
The main problem is survival, indeed.
Even the material that Marci sent to Kircher, beside the MS itself, does not seem to have survived.
This happened more than 200 years after the creation of the MS, and there are not too many places where it could have ended up (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Most of these are well-researched, especially by the many people researching Kircher) so chances that it will still turn up are not too good.
Specifically about Barschius: he did not leave just the MS to Marci, but his alchemical library, perhaps his whole library. Its fate is described by Czech historians: Marci left his books to his son Johannes Ludwig. This is of some interest as it should also have included the letters he received from Kircher. His son entered the monastery of Zahan (Sagan in Silesia), where this library was also deposited, but from there it has disappeared without a trace.
RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - ReneZ - 11-09-2025
(10-09-2025, 10:09 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When it comes to archives, I have two questions. Not rhetorical ones - actual questions.
One is about the Vatican archives. What is in there, how much is "hidden", how much is digitized, how well-known are these scans? How accessible is it to researchers, and how many manuscripts are there that have not been touched by anyone who had Voynichese in their accessible memory?
I don't have a good overview, but from my limited experience, I would say that archives are generally not digitised. This is independent of the question whether any such data are available online, either publicly or only to selected users.
Digitising requires manpower and dedicated funding.
Preservation (by making copies) started well before the digital age, and there are large collections of copies kept on microfilm, usually black and white, and stored (far) away from the originals. Again, this would be of library items much more than archival material.
Archives generally can be visited for research, and Mark Knowles has written quite a bit about that.
However, this is barely a feasible path of research for Voynich enthousiasts for several reasons:
- the material contained in these archives can be vast, and just visiting for a day or two will allow to see only a small fragment. (You'd need to know exactly where to look, which brings back the point of the knowledge of the archivist)
- it requires training to be able to read and understand much of the handwritten material
- without a deep knowledge of the historical context, one is likely to miss potentially important leads
This last point may seem strange, but it is based on my own experience. This sensation of: "I wish I had known 'this' when I was 'there' ".
With respect to the Vatican, as I am sure you know, they are digitising and publishing the vast majority of their library collections. Some of these collections have 'archive' in their name, but that does not mean that their entire archives will be published online.
They also have guidelines. For example, and I don't remember where I read it, material that is too 'recent' is not published. It may not even be accessible except to documented researchers (letter of introduction).
Other collections will be generally protected.
Note that the italian word "secreta" in this context does not mean 'secret', but 'separated'. That may still mean: inaccessible.
RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-09-2025
(11-09-2025, 12:10 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.His son entered the monastery of Zahan (Sagan in Silesia), where this library was also deposited, but from there it has disappeared without a trace.
That is hard to believe. Could it have been because of a religious war, or a fire? Or some Voynich-like book dealer bought it?
See the next post.
RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-09-2025
(11-09-2025, 12:10 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.His son entered the monastery of Zahan (Sagan in Silesia), where this library was also deposited, but from there it has disappeared without a trace.
According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., "The medieval book collection of the [Agustinian Monastery] library was taken away to Wrocław in 1810. It survived the last war and is currently the richest preserved medieval monastic library collection in Poland.".
It seems that there is also a Franciscan monastery in Zagan. But I suppose that it would be too low-class for Marci's son?
RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - ReneZ - 11-09-2025
Marci's life has been studied intensively by Czech historians, for well over a hundred years. It is based on precisely the sort of archival research that this thread is about.
The sources I quote at his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may illustrate this. This also provides the entirely reliable reference for the Zahan monastery statement I made above.
(10-09-2025, 10:09 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think the chance is high that some known and digitized manuscripts have relevance for the VM, but this relevance hasn't been noticed yet. But then I'm thinking about something relatively small, like an illuminating parallel for an image.
I remain very sceptical about such parallels. Many are subjective (are vague, or involve some theory or hypothesis) and many are generic (yes, the Voynich MS sagittarius fits in a German tradition).
The most objective and specific comparison that I can think of, that has been made until now, is the anatomically incorrect lobster.
However, there is extremely little that can be concluded from this, because we have a very incomplete picture of where and when such incorrect illustrations appeared.
We would need something much more complete – not a single detail – and unkown, undiscussed illustrated manuscripts are getting more and more rare as time goes by.
RE: What are your approaches to finding manuscripts online - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-09-2025
(11-09-2025, 12:12 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The sources I quote at his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may illustrate this. This also provides the entirely reliable reference for the Zahan monastery statement I made above.
You mean Smolka? I can't access that article. Did he give a possible reason for the disappearance? Did he mention the transfer of the Medieval collection to Wrocław in 1810 that is claimed by that website?
All the best, --jorge