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+--- Thread: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? (/thread-2105.html)
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - -JKP- - 18-09-2017
(18-09-2017, 01:42 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know whether my view qualifies as a code. I'm more inclined to see the VM as a cultural product, though I'm not sure about the script. I do lean towards the possibility that this script was used among a group of people.
Basically my question is: what is the diffetence between a script and a substitution code (of any type)?
That's a good question.
It seems to me that a script is something that is agreed-upon that people with a certain level of education or familiarity can recognize and read. It's created mainly to communicate, not to obfuscate, even if that communication is within a relatively small group (missionaries often created new scripts when they did mission work in cultures where there was no written language and where the missionary's native script didn't adequately convey the sounds in the mission area's language).
A code is a substitute for the generally recognized and agreed-upon script that might be created 1) for practical reasons (as in a code to organize office files, a list of initials for each kind of document, for example) or 2) to obfuscate the original script with the intent of making it harder for those "not in the know" to read.
Cryptographers have more precise meanings for words like code and cipher, so I'm using the word "code" in a broader sense (and hopefully not raising too many hairs on the backs of cryptographers' necks).
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - Davidsch - 20-09-2017
A codebook for example could look like this:
p= item
daiin = synonymis
89 = dyoscordides
98 = apuleius
A cipher could look like this:
98 = 17 = 17th letter of Latin alphabet
or
daiin => d=null, aiin=aun => ein
Substitute cipher:
daiin => d=ex, aii=am, n=p[le] => example
Script is a general name for anything that can be transliterated, a translating has to determine what it means.
More info examples: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - Wladimir D - 24-06-2018
(18-09-2017, 11:11 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems to me that a script is something that is agreed-upon that people with a certain level of education or familiarity can recognize and read. It's created mainly to communicate, not to obfuscate,...
Hooray!
I found a way to form a meaningful text with statistical characteristics specific to VMS. (frequent repetition of words in the sentence, small changes in words in the sentence, successive repetitions of words ...) 
According to Russian laws, the use of non-normative vocabulary (mat) is prohibited in the mass media and public places. Such the root word are five. But given the prefixes, suffixes, declensions, conjugations of such words, you can count more than 500. And, depending on the context, these words can have different meanings.
I'm familiar with a young man who is very fond of telling interesting stories in a strictly male company. In doing so, he does not just use profanity, but namely "speaks of mat" (говорит матом), when in the sentence more than half of the words - this is an abnormal vocabulary!
If the dictaphone record of his stories is literally translated into a written form, then we get a structure close to VMS!
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - Anton - 24-06-2018
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - DONJCH - 24-06-2018
Wladamir D - That is....pretty cool actually! I am in awe!
I would love to buy a bottle of vodka and a block of cheese and share it with you two guys. You could tell me all about Russian humour!
One story I particularly like: The CIA placed a bug in a Russian rocket factory and concluded that the secret rocket parts were (let's say, x, y, z)* and that these new parts were so versatile that they could be used in any combination.
*turns out x,y,z were the top 3 root words on the gat list!
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - -JKP- - 24-06-2018
That sounds very interesting, Wladimir.
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - davidjackson - 01-07-2018
I don't get it What is mat? Russian slang?
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - Koen G - 01-07-2018
I guess it's similar to English "four letter words", which are also forbidden in many public contexts.
The difference here appears to be that a few words appear very often in a variety of forms. This may give rise to repetition patterns as we see them in Voynichese.
Think English f*ck and derivations: fcking, fcker, fcked, fck off and so on. I don't know what the extent of variety is in Russian.
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - Wladimir D - 02-07-2018
(01-07-2018, 09:32 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't get it What is mat? Russian slang?
David, what do you say when you hit your finger with a hammer?
According to the law, words with roots refer to "mate", which describe: 1 / the male sexual organ.
2 / female reproductive organ.
For their description in open sources use the Latin terms - phallus and vagina.
3 / the process of copulation.
4 / the name of a woman with low social responsibility (as our president calls them
)If a Russian football player is heavily beaten from behind by footsteps, the whole stadium hears the word - бл *дь . If it was a footballer from another Eastern European country, you would have heard - kur * a.
In the Czech language, the word čur*k is also a “mat”, but in Russian it is not “mat”, although from this root "čur" (чур - stump)comes an offensive name from Middle Asians.
With the help of the roots of the Russian "mat" you can describe a lot of concepts.
Nouns - a man, a woman, a girl, any person, the end (of the working day), a simple matter, any subject, of known and unknown purpose, ...
Adjectives - good, excellent, bad, very bad, beautiful, disgusting, ...
Verbs - to walk, beat, walk, steal, talk, lie, go crazy ...
But most often in colloquial speech these words are used as introduction words (as we say " to link words", in place of a comma). In this case, these are zero words that do not require translation.
RE: Do you believe Voynichese is a substitution code for a natural language? - davidjackson - 05-07-2018
Thank you! I'm taking notes for the next time I venture near a hammer. So much more expressive than a forced grunt of 'fiddlesticks' through clenched teeth.