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+--- Thread: The containers in the Pharma section (/thread-406.html)
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Bluetoes101 - 14-12-2025
I might be doing 2+2=pineapple.. but I wonder if they contain small lengths of gold wire?
The kid in the bottom left seems to be drawing wire, above the vessels on the top left are spools of something hung up above the containers.
Surely we have a medieval metal working interested person on here somewhere?
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - R. Sale - 14-12-2025
The bird on the top, Post #167, is a pelican, "rending its breast" according to its Christianized mythos.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Jorge_Stolfi - 15-12-2025
(13-12-2025, 10:51 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've exhausted all my ideas for functional things involving toolsI've seen them in a number of metal workshop images, they are always "top shelf".. but I can't work it out.
I don't really know, but I see many possibilities...
Maybe the jars contain fluxes, like borax, that are used when welding or soldering metals other than gold. The molten flux dissolves the oxide and allows the metals to fuse together.
They could also contain fine polishing pastes, used to get mirror finish on metals. Jewelers need the same for grinding and polishing gemstones.
The jars could also contain acid substances used to "pickle" metal parts to remove rust from iron/steel or oxides from silver, copper, brass. (I often use citric acid for that purpose. Citric acid was discovered in the Baghdad Caliphate around 1000 CE, but I don't know when it became commonly available in Europe and commonly used for that.)
In blacksmith shops one also quenches parts in water and oil to harden them, and covers them with linseed oil as an anti-rust final coat. Goldsmiths may quench parts in water, rather than wait for them to cool in air, just to save time.
Goldsmiths and blacksmiths that can do casting may need relatively small amounts of certain materials to make molds, e.g. talc or a similar powder to prevent the halves of a mold from sticking together or to the cast piece.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Bluetoes101 - 20-12-2025
[EDIT] Actually - This is (was) off topic for this thread sorry, we don't know she is in a vessel from Pharma.. I'll make a new post
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - JoJo_Jost - 27-12-2025
I found this by chance while searching for Voce Magicae: From Clavicula Salomonis:
It is a smoking vessel – I have no opinion on it, but it caught my eye.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Jorge_Stolfi - 12-01-2026
I wrote a script to extract all the Pharma container images from the BL 2014 images and string them into a single image:
I believe that Pharma-2 (f99r .. f102v1, 26 jars) was created before Pharma-1 (f88r ..f89v1, 18 jars), therefore I concatenated the images in that order. Within each of those subsections I used the "standard" page order (as bound), and top to bottom within each page.
For this composite, the images were reduced to 25%, and converted to grayscale because you-know-what. But the full scale color versions, as well as the scripts, are in the folder below.
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As I see it, the style evolved gradually from the simple cylinders of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to the "Fabergé" models of f89r1. Various features like feet or flat "wineglass" base, slender stalk, spherical or oval body, narrow mouth, and lid with ball and point gradually become the norm.
For this analysis (and any analysis of decorative style or handwriting) it would be essential to consider a certain topic that cannot be specified here because its mere mention causes epileptic seizures on certain sensitive subjects, and may pervert the minds of innocent newcomers. Imagery analysis without taking it into account is likely to be a big waste of time. But that is what we are here for, right? So never mind...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - JoJo_Jost - 12-01-2026
Nice overview, thanks Stolfi – I hope I'm allowed to use it in another thread of mine.
I would define it as follows: These are two different classes.
On the left side, there seem to be functional tubes, while on the right side, there seem to be vessels. However, within these two classes, one can see a development.
I would like to point out once again that the left-hand class of tubes is characterised by the ability that (theoretically) almost all of them could be inserted into one another.
This is not possible with the vessels on the right-hand side – these seem to be more for storage.
I do not know whether the ones on the left were intended to be inserted into each other. But it is an interpretable criterion that can at least define the difference between the two classes of objects depicted.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - ReneZ - 12-01-2026
(12-01-2026, 06:31 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I believe that Pharma-2 (f99r .. f102v1, 26 jars) was created before Pharma-1 (f88r ..f89v1, 18 jars), therefore I concatenated the images in that order. Within each of those subsections I used the "standard" page order (as bound), and top to bottom within each page.
Having done a similar exercise in the past, I found that the 'best' (subjectively) order is achieved by not nesting the two foldouts of quire 19, but putting them one after the other, and then going according to the normal page order.
This results in:
1. (quire 19, inner foldout): f100, f101
2. (quire 19, outer foldout): f99, f102
3. (quire 15): f88, f89
Is that what you also propose?
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Jorge_Stolfi - 12-01-2026
(12-01-2026, 07:32 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I hope I'm allowed to use it in another thread of mine.Sure!
(12-01-2026, 09:23 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.not nesting the two foldouts of quire 19, but putting them one after the other, and then going according to the normal page order.Done!
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The thicker black lines separate the bifolios. The jar counts are 8+18+18.
Indeed the progression is much more consistent now. Feet appear closer together, in bifolio 2 (f99+f102).
(12-01-2026, 07:32 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the left side, there seem to be functional tubes, while on the right side, there seem to be vessels.Perhaps the bulbous ones with narrow mouths are bottles for liquids, while the cylindrical ones are for solids?
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - JoJo_Jost - 12-01-2026
Quote:Perhaps the bulbous ones with narrow mouths are bottles for liquids, while the cylindrical ones are for solids?
Of course, something like that is conceivable... we don't know. But the main point was that there are two different, clearly distinguishable categories.
However, if you look at that pictures, it's not so far-fetched...
