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+--- Thread: Voynich through Phonetic Irish (/thread-5032.html)
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - Doireannjane - 13-11-2025
(13-11-2025, 10:44 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-11-2025, 10:09 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you're not going to try to demonstrate repeatability, why are you on this thread?
Good question actually. Mostly because I strongly believe that even the most unrealistic solutions may contain useful insights, when coming from a person that seems to be genuinely interested in the manuscript and has obviously spent considerable time working on it. So, I generally engage with many new solutions, even when I find them completely implausible. Also, you did ask for a review of your approach in your first post. If your only desire in this thread is for people to demonstrate repeatability by blindly applying your method, then there is definitely no need for me to spend more time here.
(13-11-2025, 10:09 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All you need is Teanglann
The words you provided are very unrealistic for the most common words in almost any text in any language. The most common words even in a technical or poetic text would be generic words like: and, not, which, that, even, for, this, from, very, often, less, more, each, what, there, get, take, etc. Not "saying", "point", "cloth", etc.
You have shrunk down what I provided above. It is NOT just "says", "point" or "cloth". Each of those have MULTIPLE other meanings that are context dependent (included in all of their definitions). If I open up an IKEA manual would the most common words be the same as a poetic text or technical text? Much of this is instructional. And some words are combined: FROM is the most common word, it's the "a fada" at the end of a word.
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - rikforto - 13-11-2025
(13-11-2025, 09:51 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-11-2025, 08:17 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, what you're doing is not in good faith. It's rude.
I can't agree. It is straightforward, yes, and it does simplify, but it's designed to highlight a point and it does a reasonably good job. Overall I see little difference between your solution and rikforto's mockup, other than yours is much more complex and evolved.
(13-11-2025, 08:17 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can you use my methodology and see what you produce?
No, even though I tried. One of the most common words in the MS is chol. According to the table you posted it's r??, only the first glyph has a single unique mapping, there is no way to identify which word this could be. Another very common word is chedy. It's r?d[in], again it's absolutely unclear what this should map to.
If you wish to demonstrate your methodology, here are some of the most common words in the MS: chedy, Shedy, chol, chey, cheol, Shey, chor, dar. Each one of these appears more than a hundred times in the manuscript. If the manuscript is a phonetic representation of a language, each of these should map to some very common word. It's possible that some of them have several meanings, but at least one of the meanings should be a frequent word. What are these 8 common words, could you list them?
For the sake of comparison, here is what I get based on the notes I posted, which I've never quite gotten a straight answer on whether or not I understand the transliteration, but it's where I'm at. Because I agree there is no record of what e ought to be, these results are not wholly indeptendent because I peaked at the translations given to get "i", but this is the problem with not having a complete system.
chedy: ridhin (compare rith)
Shedy: bhidhin (compare bréidín; given l is a fada I am quite confused where the two are coming from)
chol: ra' (matches rá)
chey: riin (compare rinn)
cheol: ria' (compare reann)
Shey: bhiin (compare reann? ré? One of us has quite lost the plot, I think?)
chor: ragh, raigh, or rag ("r" is one of the more problematic letters in my notes, and I think this has something to do with how the relevant sound is rendered in Irish spelling; regardless, compare ráig and note the absence of a l to give fada)
dar: dogh, etc. (compare deoch)
So while I'm able to get in the ballpark for most, and I suspect some of the divergences are down to the system not being explicitly linked to the intricacies of Irish spelling, I still see quite a few arbitrary choices surfacing, especially unexplained fada and shifting vowels. Shey may need a second look. This is before I begin playing around with the dictionary, but before I do that, we need to all get on the same page about how to read what's actually in the manuscript.
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - oshfdk - 13-11-2025
(13-11-2025, 10:53 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You have shrunk down what I provided above. It is NOT just "says", "point" or "cloth". Each of those have MULTIPLE other meanings that are context dependent (included in all of their definitions). If I open up an IKEA manual would the most common words be the same as a poetic text or technical text? Much of this is instructional. And some words are combined: FROM is the most common word, it's the "a fada" at the end of a word.
Behold, the first IKEA manual I found on the internet and its most common words. Totally dominated by generics: OF, AND, REMOVE, ON, THEIR, TO, HELP, ITEMS. Even in this extremely unusual text. Where are these generic words in your translations above? Note that if I collated multiple IKEA manuals, the generic words would score even higher.
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - Jorge_Stolfi - 13-11-2025
(13-11-2025, 10:53 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is NOT just "says", "point" or "cloth". Each of those have MULTIPLE other meanings that are context dependent (included in all of their definitions).
OK so can you list all possible meanings of the word chedy that you could possibly use? Or at least as many as you can?
That is the least one expects from a dictionary. Or from a proposed "solution" to the VMS.
And, again, could you please translate the following sentence (not from the VMS, I just made it up) into the dialect of Irish that you think the VMS Author used, and then show how he would write it with the Voynichese alphabet?
Tea of willow bark is good for stomach and liver ailments. Take one cup
daily for ten days. Willow grows in open fields and river banks.
Thank you.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - Doireannjane - 13-11-2025
The fada. Fada is stretching a vowel if it precedes one. OR is is an L (usually standing alone or in a place where it doesn't make sense to be stretching a vowel).
When at the end of a word, you have to check if it there's an O or A in front of it and if the root is a noun. In which case it will mean FROM, in relation with the noun before it.
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - bi3mw - 13-11-2025
Brilliant instructions, pay special attention to point one. As I understand it, books are also just decorative items for Billy owners.
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - Doireannjane - 13-11-2025
(13-11-2025, 11:10 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-11-2025, 09:51 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-11-2025, 08:17 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, what you're doing is not in good faith. It's rude.
I can't agree. It is straightforward, yes, and it does simplify, but it's designed to highlight a point and it does a reasonably good job. Overall I see little difference between your solution and rikforto's mockup, other than yours is much more complex and evolved.
(13-11-2025, 08:17 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can you use my methodology and see what you produce?
No, even though I tried. One of the most common words in the MS is chol. According to the table you posted it's r??, only the first glyph has a single unique mapping, there is no way to identify which word this could be. Another very common word is chedy. It's r?d[in], again it's absolutely unclear what this should map to.
If you wish to demonstrate your methodology, here are some of the most common words in the MS: chedy, Shedy, chol, chey, cheol, Shey, chor, dar. Each one of these appears more than a hundred times in the manuscript. If the manuscript is a phonetic representation of a language, each of these should map to some very common word. It's possible that some of them have several meanings, but at least one of the meanings should be a frequent word. What are these 8 common words, could you list them?
For the sake of comparison, here is what I get based on the notes I posted, which I've never quite gotten a straight answer on whether or not I understand the transliteration, but it's where I'm at. Because I agree there is no record of what e ought to be, these results are not wholly indeptendent because I peaked at the translations given to get "i", but this is the problem with not having a complete system.
chedy: ridhin (compare rith)
Shedy: bhidhin (compare bréidín; given l is a fada I am quite confused where the two are coming from)
chol: ra' (matches rá)
chey: riin (compare rinn)
cheol: ria' (compare reann)
Shey: bhiin (compare reann? ré? One of us has quite lost the plot, I think?)
chor: ragh, raigh, or rag ("r" is one of the more problematic letters in my notes, and I think this has something to do with how the relevant sound is rendered in Irish spelling; regardless, compare ráig and note the absence of a l to give fada)
dar: dogh, etc. (compare deoch)
So while I'm able to get in the ballpark for most, and I suspect some of the divergences are down to the system not being explicitly linked to the intricacies of Irish spelling, I still see quite a few arbitrary choices surfacing, especially unexplained fada and shifting vowels. Shey may need a second look. This is before I begin playing around with the dictionary, but before I do that, we need to all get on the same page about how to read what's actually in the manuscript.
I think you've lost the plot with what character is BR(r with hat is BRIH sound). All of them are exact phonetically.
To demonstrate you have to listen to the three dialects, sorry if I didn't make that clear. You have to listen to the dialects on Teanglann when doing this. That is literally how I did this.
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - Doireannjane - 13-11-2025
(13-11-2025, 11:19 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-11-2025, 10:53 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is NOT just "says", "point" or "cloth". Each of those have MULTIPLE other meanings that are context dependent (included in all of their definitions).
OK so can you list all possible meanings of the word chedy that you could possibly use? Or at least as many as you can?
That is the least one expects from a dictionary. Or from a proposed "solution" to the VMS.
And, again, could you please translate the following sentence (not from the VMS, I just made it up) into the dialect of Irish that you think the VMS Author used, and then show how he would write it with the Voynichese alphabet?
Tea of willow bark is good for stomach and liver ailments. Take one cup
daily for ten days. Willow grows in open fields and river banks.
Thank you.
All the best, --stolfi
I think I only posted the words but not the sentence last time, I'll arrange them now. But tea is mentioned when talking about the woodbine (honeysuckle) bud on 54r I was talking about in my first response to this question.
For rídin, I have the words (with diminutive):
ré1, f. (gs. ~, pl. ~anna). 1. Moon. (a) An ~ agus na réaltaí, the moon and the stars. (b) Phase of moon. ~ nua, new moon. An ~ ghealaí, an ~ sholais, the visible moon, moonlight. Oíche ~ gealaí, bright moonlight night. An ~ dhorcha, the dark of the moon, the dark. Oíche ~ dorcha, moonless night; very dark night. Lán na ~, the full moon. © Uair sa ~, once a month; once in a while. Gach ~ sholais, regularly; at every opportunity. 2. Period. (a) Portion of time. Lit: ~ mhór den lá, a great part of the day. Leis an ~ sin, during that time. S.a. AITHRÍ 2. (b) Span of life, of career. Is fada an ~ a fuair sé, he had a long life. Chaith sé a ~ leis, he spent his life at it. I ~ Iorua, in the time of Herod. Le mo ~, during my lifetime; as long as I live. © Age, era. An Ré Órga, the Golden Age. ~ na Críostaíochta, the Christian era. (d) (In phrase) Roimh ~, in advance, beforehand. Bhí mé ann roimh ~, I was there beforehand. An oíche roimh ~, the previous night. 3. Lit: Space, intervening distance. An ~ ó thalamh go firmimint, the distance between earth and sky. (Var: m)
ré2, f. (gs. ~, pl. ~ite). Stretch of ground; level ground. ~ shléibhe, stretch of moorland. ~ rosaigh, stretch of woodland; bushy ground. Fig: Tá an áit ina ~ rosaigh, the place is in a chaotic state. Lit: ~ charbaid, chariot-course. ~ chatha, chomhraic, battle-ground.
ré3, m. (gs. ~, pl. ~anna). Agr: Row.
ré4, m. (gs. ~, pl. ~anna). Mus: Re.
ré5, s. (In phrase) Don ~ (braon, pingin), not a, devil a (drop, penny).
ré6-, pref. Level, smooth; easy; fairly, moderately.
ré7. s. (In phrase) ~ roithleagán, dizziness. ~ roithleagánach, dizzy, causing dizziness.
ré8 = ROIMH.
With diminutive
ríd, m. (gs. ~, pl. ~eanna). 1. Reed. 2. Stuff, quality. Tá ~ ar leith san éadach sin, that cloth is of particularly fine quality. 3. Inherent quality. Tá ~ ceoil ann, he is a born singer.
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - rikforto - 13-11-2025
(13-11-2025, 11:27 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To demonstrate you have to listen to the three dialects, sorry if I didn't make that clear. You have to listen to the dialects on Teanglann when doing this. That is literally how I did this.
At risk of stating the blisteringly obvious, in order to type something into Teanglann to listen to it, I must first have something to type. In order to have that, we will need to agree on a method for extracting something to type. If you are condensing that step, then in order for me to reproduce it, you are going to have to be more explicit.
[quote]
I think you've lost the plot with what character is BR(r with hat is BRIH sound). All of them are exact phonetically.
[\quote]
I have a few possible readings for Shey: brihiin, briiin, perhaps briheiin. I can think of a few ways to simplify those stacks of "i" if you have a rule, and looking closer at your proposed solutiosn brieiin or possibly a few with a fada are in the cards...
Otherwise, you disagree with what I've extracted from the text? Are the others ready to go into Teanglann?
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish - Doireannjane - 13-11-2025
So if it's as you have written (except the hat on top of R is on center) I would type into TG, Brean or Brian or Breinn. If there are two lines for that "i" "eh" sound it's more like BRUIN, I would type in BRUIN or BREEN into TG. The fadas in Modern Irish are doing their own thing, so you do have to poke around and listen to suggestions.