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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - JoJo_Jost - 20-12-2025
@ Aga Tentakulus Yes, that's how it is in modern Bavarian, but in the Middle Ages, Bavarian wasn't as abbreviated as it is today. Back then, ‘auch’ was not written as “o”, but as ‘och’, especially at the end of a sentence. If at all, then in lists as +.
and I don't understand in your reading what the ‘g’ is doing there
RE: 116v - Koen G - 20-12-2025
I brought this up years ago in this thread, but now I found a nice example of "omega" written as "O". "Alpha & omega" is one of the most frequent elements of charms.
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RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 20-12-2025
I can't pinpoint exactly where in Bavaria it comes from.
The area is huge. In the Alps, the pronunciation changes every 20 kilometres.
What is certain is that it is Bavarian and not Alemannic.
I take into account not only the language, but also the cultural area. But also Italian, Romance or Latin, in whatever form. And now, of course, the battlements too.
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 20-12-2025
@Koen
We also see this symbol in the VM.
I think the authors ran out of ideas for this rare application and therefore adopted it one-to-one.
RE: 116v - JoJo_Jost - 20-12-2025
@ koen - yes, that makes sense, Omega and Alpha.
Perfect.
So, Koen, we can now close the thread
. We have the solution to the 116 puzzle and we have the final clue to A and O 
. The two Voynich words are still missing, but we'll have to wait until someone has translated the entire manuscript. 
Who's turning off the lights?
RE: 116v - Jorge_Stolfi - 21-12-2025
(20-12-2025, 10:43 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe because deleted posts remain as "stubs" for moderators.
It WAS 116 until I posted my comment.
RE: 116v - wyrquill - 22-12-2025
Maybe it's a long shot, but after watching Koen's latest video on this and considering that charms could have corrupted/stylized (as well as meaningless) words, I wondered if maybe the part
six + marix + morix + vix + abia + maria
could have originated from something like "sic maria [morit / mortua est]; vivat + ave maria" (meaning "thus Mary died; long live! + [the Hail Mary]" considering Dr. Hindley's suggestion of abia = ave)
Or maybe, possibly less likely, from "sic maria morit; vivat ἁγία μαρία" (ἁγία μαρία = Holy Mary), which could mean something like "thus Mary died; long live Holy Mary!". In the Orthodox Church they do use the term "Ἁγία Μαρία", it seems to refer only to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., so I'm not sure if in the West they'd use "Holy Mary" to refer to the Virgin Mary.
It seems that the phrase "The king is dead, long live the king!" was coined in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., so the timeline is a bit tight too
Another possible long shot (which I couldn't find if someone mentioned before), the term "cere", if it really is supposed to be read that way, reminded me of Romanian "cere", derived from Latin "quaerere" ("to look for"), which became "cherere" in Italian (now obsolete), "quérir" in French and "querer" in Portuguese/Spanish, so there is this /kwae/ -> /ke/ evolution in Western Romance which could maybe have caused some confusion? In that case, the assumed reading
multos + te + cere + portas + n[omen]
Maybe was supposed to be read as something like "many look for you, who bears the name [name]".
It uses the accusative "multos" instead of the nominative "multus", but that replacement happened in some Romance dialects too. That dialect sounds more Iberian than Italic/Gallic, but maybe the scribe was trying to write Latin while not being very good at it?
RE: 116v - Koen G - 22-12-2025
I guess the cadence of the line can be read in two ways:
SIX marix morix,
VIX abai maria
or:
sIX marIX morIX vIX,
abia maria
I think the reason why Katherine suggested a corruption of "Ave Maria" is because "Ave Maria" as in "say an Ave Maria" is so incredibly common in charms.
But what would it take for the words "Ave Maria", of all things, to become corrupted?
RE: 116v - Bluetoes101 - 22-12-2025
There is another point Katherine made that I found interesting. I think that it would require a more German/Latin input as what she is referencing may just be related to English charms, but is "+n+" always "insert name" or sometimes "name (these)"?
Then "name (these) six - Marix Morix Vix Abia Ma Ria" starts to make more sense (including her consideration of Maria maybe being ma+ria).
If the whole thing is based on "Maria" then maybe "(M)aria" was corrupted to "(M)abia" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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- For what it is worth, with how "vix" is written, I think it is a corruption of "six" - Roman numerals 6 + the "magic" x.
Which I guess also makes me ponder if the instruction is six Marix Morix, six Abia Ma(+)ria - 2 lots of x6 Maria'ish things
RE: 116v - Aga Tentakulus - 23-12-2025
It is called ‘sis maris moris vis altia maria’.
The ‘x’ is only there to give the saying more magic when spoken. All the words are in the dictionary, and when put in order, they tell a story.
Example: ‘maris’. Goat
How many goats do you still need? And we're not talking about a goat or a sheep here. There are many.