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Ruby's Greek Thread - How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Printable Version

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RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - ReneZ - 18-10-2025

(17-10-2025, 11:05 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you find, like me, that the words « fchedol shedy » in 115v are placed slightly apart from the rest of the line, as if it were a title or a reference?

Yes, I agree, but this is something that happens very frequently. One can also see that the writing baseline has lots of little jumps. (This was already discussed in other threads in this forum).

RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 18-10-2025

(18-10-2025, 12:55 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This was already discussed in other threads in this forum.

That's perfect, then!
I wasn't paying attention, are there any words or groups of words that appear separately more often than others?

RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Jorge_Stolfi - 19-10-2025

(17-10-2025, 11:05 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you find, like me, that the words « fchedol shedy » in 115v are placed slightly apart from the rest of the line, as if it were a title or a reference?

It could be sort of emphasis.  The p/f gallows seem to be fancy versions of other gallows or combinations, that are used mostly on the head lines of parags  (as in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) and occasionally inside parags.  Not quite how we use capital letters today, but the same general idea.  In the first example, once the scribe had decided to use an f gallows for that phrase, he (unconsciously?) lowered the baseline to get a bot more space for it.

Or it could also be that the Scribe could not make out those two words on the draft, so he left a  blank space, and wrote them later, after asking the Author to clarify the reading.

In the second example, the baseline shift is not that notable. It could be just the Scribe shifting on the chair between one word an the next...

All the best, --stolfi

RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - ReneZ - 19-10-2025

(18-10-2025, 05:58 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(18-10-2025, 12:55 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This was already discussed in other threads in this forum.

That's perfect, then!
I wasn't paying attention, are there any words or groups of words that appear separately more often than others?

The part being discussed before was more related to the small baseline jumps. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may be the thread.

I never heard or saw that there are preferred words or groups. The overall appearance (to me) is more that of the scribe taking lots of short breaks.

RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Jorge_Stolfi - 19-10-2025

(19-10-2025, 04:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The part being discussed before was more related to the small baseline jumps. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may be the thread. [... ]The overall appearance (to me) is more that of the scribe taking lots of short breaks.

I You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  my view of this issue on that thread. The Scribe surely took breaks, but they need not have been that frequent.  The baselines wander about even within each word...

All the best, --stolfi

RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 20-10-2025

Words shed-
At least nine words beginning with shed- are declined forms of two, 
σχέδη – leaf, page
and σχέδος – lesson, note, page :
  1. shedy – σχέδη or σχέδος;
  2. shedor – σχέδος;
  3. shedey – σχέδεος, gen of σχέδος;
  4. shedol – σχέδᾱ, dual of σχέδη;
  5. shedal – σχέδαι, plural of σχέδη;
  6. shedaiin – σχεδῶν, gen pl of σχέδη;
  7. shedair – σχέδαις, dat pl of σχέδη;
  8. shedar – σχέδᾱς, acc pl of σχέδη;
  9. shedam – σχεδάριον – dim. of σχέδη.


RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 21-10-2025

Some word.shedy groups
If the word shedy and its derivatives mean « note », « page », the word groups « dcheeos shedy » (115r.2) and « dcheos shedar » (115r.44) can be equivalent: « θύος σχέδη » and « θύος σχέδᾱς » for « incense page » and « incense pages »?
Similarly, the groups « pchedar shedy » (83r.1), « pchedar shedal » (83v.11) and « fchedol shedy » (115v.38), would be respectively « φυτάς σχέδη », « φυτάς σχέδαι » and « φυτά σχέδη » for « page plant », « pages plant », and « page plants ».
The words « pardy shedy » (39v.7) would be « παρδή σχέδη » for « page wind (fart) ».
The group « lodaiin shedy » (46v.5) would be « λωτῶν σχέδη » – « page of lotuses (flutes, specula) ».

RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 23-10-2025

Word lolchedy from 75v
The last word of line 28 of 75v, « lolchedy, » is unique, unfortunately reminiscent of several Greek words at once:
  1. λαγετας – leader,
  2. λαγιδευς – leveret,
  3. Λαγίδης – Ptolemy,
  4. λακετας – cicada,
  5. λακιδες – tatters, eunuchs.
Since my goal at this stage is to combine several words at once, I’ll try to read with the preceding word « qokeedy. »
With its 305 occurrences, « qokeedy » must be among the most frequent in the manuscript, without this making it any more understandable.
Indeed, my current proposal is that it comes from the verb δονέω – to shake, to agitate, and which is used in various situations, such as :
  1. wheel, of troops;
  2. of the wind driving the clouds before it;
  3. drive about, of the horsefly that stings oxen;
  4. of the whip that makes one flee;
  5. shake, of the wind shaking the trees;
  6. beat, stir milk, to make butter;
  7. brandish (a javelin);
  8. rouse the voice of song, of sound, murmur, buzz, of bees;
  9. excites, of a smell that makes the nostrils dilate;
  10. disturb, terrify, origin of love, agitate, excite;
  11. disturb, of popular troubles, revolutions, wars, in the moral sense to disturb the soul, to agitate one’s mind.
Another possibility is δονητος – shaken, lat agitabilis – easily moved, mobile.
With so many possibilities I feel lost, is it the sound of cicadas, the excitement of eunuchs or something else?

RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 23-10-2025

Yes, you are proving that Voynichese is not Greek at all with every further posting of guesswork-greek, changing assumptions and shifting characters' meanings.
How many years are you doing this already?

RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 24-10-2025

(23-10-2025, 02:59 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How many years are you doing this already?

Not long enough to have a reason to be discouraged, just about fifteen years.

(23-10-2025, 02:59 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, you are proving that Voynichese is not Greek at all with every further posting of guesswork-greek, changing assumptions and shifting characters' meanings.

What do you object to in my proposed reading of the word shedy and its cognates, for example?
How do you interpret them in your translation?