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+--- Thread: [split] Ms. germ. fol. 642 (/thread-3470.html)
[split] Ms. germ. fol. 642 - Koen G - 24-01-2021
I wonder if the thing in the middle of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might allude to physical pins that were used for rotating elements, and thus evoke the idea of a volvelle without actually making one. I thought so after seeing this page:
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RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - -JKP- - 25-01-2021
I actually turned this folio into a volvelle years ago. I printed each wheel on card stock and pinned it in the center with a paper clip (so it would hold the pieces flat while still letting it rotate). I thought it might be a code wheel for creating VMS tokens, depending on how the wheels were rotated, but I wasn't able to correlate it with the text in a way that unlocked the mystery.
RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - davidjackson - 25-01-2021
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And
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RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - Aga Tentakulus - 28-01-2021
@Koen
You mean something like this.
Just another example.
RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - -JKP- - 29-01-2021
Note how the four quadrants outside the wheels have been colored (reminds me of the VMS cosmo folio).
RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - -JKP- - 29-01-2021
Koen, I recognized the volvelle you posted but wasn't quite sure why it was niggling at me. It wasn't the center shape (I'm not sure I had noticed the center shape so I'm glad you posted it). I took a look at the manuscript again and realized why it caught my attention... it's the one with the person in the mouth of the fish, under the sign Pisces:
RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - bi3mw - 29-01-2021
JKP: That's a really good comparison.
RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - Koen G - 29-01-2021
Yup, this manuscript is pretty awesome, biblical scenes paired with zodiac signs.
RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - -JKP- - 29-01-2021
It's unfortunate that so many illustrations have been torn out. It's horribly defaced. They may have been put in a scrapbook somewhere (that was popular for a while) or used as reference materials and then tossed.
RE: Thread for random remarks and questions about Voynich images - R. Sale - 29-01-2021
Yes, indeed, that is a rather similar image over all [Posts #19 & #20). However there are some general and particular considerations. What is the provenance for this Losbuch, if that is the proper term? German 14xx, is that all we've got? What is the nature of the text that accompanies this illustration? Judging from the illustrations on fol. 642, the influence would be Christian, and the representation could be Jonah.
The significant difference, eliminated by the closeup representations, is the presence or absence of the companion creatures. The presence of companion creatures determines that the depiction belongs to the "Mermaid and her friends" category in the likes of Lauber and Harley 334, rather than being in the "Jonah" category. Conversely the absence of companions points to the "Jonah" category.
More specifically, while the fish's teeth are carefully detailed, the figure itself, the human part, lacks a clear sign of gender identity. The VMs appears to present another nymph.
Despite a variety of potential connections to various French influences from historical sources, there is certainly no reason to deny German possibilities. One need look no rather than the women who were the wives of the dukes of Burgundy. The Valois line originated with Bonne of Luxembourg. The first duke, Philip the Bold, married Margaret of Flanders. The second duke, John the Fearless, married Margaret of Bavaria. If that's not a German influence, what is? The third duke, Philip the Good, brings the chronology to the mid 1430s.
In evaluating these examples, there is a question of connection. What is the connection? How close was the connection? Was it necessary for the VMs artist to actually see the particular illustration? Would it have been possible, over a portion of a life-time for a single person to have had all these contacts? Is the VMs some sort of individual commentary on Social Media of 1435? [With all the traditional suitcases full of history?] What sort of perspective does that involve? Obviously it still fits within the C-14 of the single source calculation, with lots more space in a dual source recalculation. A later source in the C-14 calculation opens more of the mid-1400s and still retains the combination of C-14 dating with the multiple , historical references tied by provenance to the same span of years.
Also, check the birdie on the fol. 642 - upper right.
Discussion of the Losbuch illustration belongs in one of the Mermaid / Melusine threads, it will get lost here.