I don't see it as a contradiction.
The rosettes page has always looked like maps to me (so much so, I have to constantly remind myself that it may have nothing to do with maps and that I have to keep an open mind). Assuming for the moment that it's a map, the VM author must have had some particular motivation for including it, since maps were not typically included in books primarily concerned with herbs and other medical information and those with astrological charts usually only included maps of the solar system and sometimes mappa mundi.
So I've been going on the premise (I don't want to call it a theory as it's more of a temporary working assumption) that it documents a journey (or the location that was the focus of the journey), in which case the cultural references on the map page may not be the same as those in other parts of the document.
I think the swallowtail merlons are intentional. I suspect the shapes of the castles are, as well. They are landmarks that would probably be recognized by people at the time. The problem with identifying them in the 21st century, is that entire regions were often sacked and the buildings razed to the ground. Even if they weren't, castles were constantly renovated and extended—few remain in their original condition.
(12-01-2016, 04:25 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... the VM author must have had some particular motivation for including it, since maps were not typically included in books primarily concerned with herbs and other medical information and those with astrological charts usually only included maps of the solar system and sometimes mappa mundi.
It's possible that the VM author included the map, the charts or whatever because he was paid to do them. if you already had a book and wanted to add an atlas section or an astronomy section why not just have a new quire written and bound in with your old book. Is there any evidence that the scribe was the author? He could have just been writing up some scholar's notes for him in a script the scholar developed. Adding a new quire could have been the medieval equivalent of bookmarking a website that interested you. I think there was even a tradition of doing this in Germany.
And back on topic I think the merlons can be used to fix the map chronologically (pointless since we already know the parchment dates to about the same time period swallowtail merlons originated) but I don't think it can restrict VMS to being written in a particular place. After all the same map (if it is one) has swirly roofed buildings that could be Turkish, Persian or someplace else and no one seems to be seriously considering any of those as origins.
Onion domes stretched all the way across Europe into Spain at that time, so although the onion domes have to be considered, there were enough of them around that it would not be unusual for them to be included in a map of central European origins (I'm not saying it originated there, but that onion domes were not unprecedented in that area at the time).
The swallowtail merlons and saddleback rooflines were not restricted to the traditional Lombardic and Ghibelline areas. They took the architecture with them when they travelled and pillaged or colonized other areas. Many of the colonies were built exactly like their homelands. Ghibelline merlons had been around for a century or two before the VMS was created—plenty of time for them to spread to other areas.
If the map represents a journey, then the person (and other parts of the manuscript) might be from one place and the references in the map from another.
Travel as far as India and possibly also China (by westerners) has been recorded quite a bit earlier than the 15th century. Christian churches and Jewish communities (with less formal synagogues than the one established in the 16th century) sprang up all along the Arabian and Indian coastlines (typically along merchant stop-over ports).
Merchants and explorers sometimes wrote travelogues of their journeys but since only one copy of most of these documents existed, the majority have probably been lost
(03-02-2016, 02:41 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Onion domes stretched all the way across Europe into Spain at that time, so although the onion domes have to be considered, there were enough of them around that it would not be unusual for them to be included in a map of central European origins (I'm not saying it originated there, but that onion domes were not unprecedented in that area at the time).
Really? It was my understanding that although onion domes appeared in Russia by the 13th century, it was only later that they were found elsewhere in Europe, eg. in Austria in 1576.
Maybe I haven't been thorough enough in my searches, or maybe we don't have the same definition of "at that time"...
I'd be very interested to see some central/south european 15th century or earlier onion domes: do you have any examples?
(03-02-2016, 11:08 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (03-02-2016, 02:41 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Onion domes stretched all the way across Europe into Spain at that time, so although the onion domes have to be considered, there were enough of them around that it would not be unusual for them to be included in a map of central European origins (I'm not saying it originated there, but that onion domes were not unprecedented in that area at the time).
Really? It was my understanding that although onion domes appeared in Russia by the 13th century, it was only later that they were found elsewhere in Europe, eg. in Austria in 1576.
Maybe I haven't been thorough enough in my searches, or maybe we don't have the same definition of "at that time"...
I'd be very interested to see some central/south european 15th century or earlier onion domes: do you have any examples?
Actually, that was a slip on my part. I intended to write "rounded domes" since onion domes are a very specific kind of decorative architecture. Rounded domes have been around a long time.
Muslims conquered Spain in the 8th century and traveled throughout many islands of the Mediterranean, building mosques along the way (many of these were later converted to Catholic churches as Muslim influence receded). Rounded domes are found throughout Europe, even if in small numbers in some areas.
I don't think the domes in the VMS map are onion domes, unless they symbolically rather than physically represent domed buildings. They're not attached to anything at the bottom. They have feet and appear to be separate from one another and freestanding. If you look at the one on the right, especially, it resembles the containers in the small plants sections.
When I first saw the "map" I looked for some time for architectural domes with the same kinds of decorative features as these (lines around the middle, vertical striations, etc.), but couldn't find any that resemble these (I probably downloaded about a thousand domes) but you can find analogues to the shapes on Folios 89v et al.
As regards the swallow-tail crenellations on the little castle in the upper right corner of f86r, of course these cannot be taken as proof of anything, but they are an indication among many, all of which need to be taken into account.
Like others here, I have been looking at many thousands of MS images, and there is a very strong tendency in how buildings are drawn, especially castles or city walls. This type is predominantly found in MSs of N.Italy, though some Jewish MSs have potentially similar decorations (but a very different meaning and style).
An example may illustrate this. In the herbal tradition of 'Tractatus de Herbis', the illustration of 'balsamus' usually includes a garden with a wall around it. Early MSs were written and drawn in S. Italy, and look like this:
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The origin of Morgan MS 873 is not certain, but given as 1350-1375, Italy, possibly Venice, and it looks like this:
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A later copy (15th C) made in N. Italy (Lombardia) looks like this:
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The illustration was adapted to a local 'taste'.
Of course, there are examples of travellers seeing and drawing N.Italian castles.
Ah ok. Rounded domes, yes, those of course were common.
And I also agree that the onion-y shapes we see in the central rosette are probably not really architectural features anyway.
(04-02-2016, 08:51 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As regards the swallow-tail crenellations on the little castle in the upper right corner of f86r, of course these cannot be taken as proof of anything, but they are an indication among many, all of which need to be taken into account.
Like others here, I have been looking at many thousands of MS images, and there is a very strong tendency in how buildings are drawn, especially castles or city walls. This type is predominantly found in MSs of N.Italy, though some Jewish MSs have potentially similar decorations (but a very different meaning and style).
An example may illustrate this. In the herbal tradition of 'Tractatus de Herbis', the illustration of 'balsamus' usually includes a garden with a wall around it. Early MSs were written and drawn in S. Italy, and look like this:
BL Egerton 747: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Paris BN Lat. 6823: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The origin of Morgan MS 873 is not certain, but given as 1350-1375, Italy, possibly Venice, and it looks like this:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A later copy (15th C) made in N. Italy (Lombardia) looks like this:
BL Sloane 4016: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The illustration was adapted to a local 'taste'.
Of course, there are examples of travellers seeing and drawing N.Italian castles.
Hello Rene,
just to be sure I understand your point: have you selected those particular examples to point out that only the Northern (and later) Italian manuscript has Swallowtail merlons?
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Is the Voynich castle you are referring to the attached one?
I never looked much into this, but this specific building seems to have a number of interesting features:
* swallowtail merlons;
* rectangular plan, with a courtyard;
* two storeys, with couples and triplets of narrow windows;
* windows both on the outer and inner walls (towards the courtyard);
* a central higher tower with smaller merlons and steep pitch roof;
* two lower towers, with flat roofs and no merlons, at the sides.
The steep pitch roof seems to me particularly suggestive of a Northern origin, but this is just a superficial impression. I will try to look for XV Century illustrations matching the other features as well.
Hi Marco,
the point of the example was primarily to illustrate one case with some pictures.
It is certainly visible in many other illustrated MSs.
I find this example interesting, as it is a case where a drawing is deliberately changed in the process of
making the copy. I use an example from a herbal MSs as I have looked at these more than any other
type of MS, but of course there aren't many buildings in them.
As regards the steep roof, they are very common in central Europe (Northern when seen from
Italy of course ;-) ) and the wider Veneto area.
By the way, there is another type of crenellations in the MS, see this Voyager link:
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Thank you, Rene!
Yes, the way in which images were changed when copied from a source to another is extremely interesting!