The Voynich Ninja

I keep seeing this diagram identified as Atropa belladonna. I can't see why, everything about the diagram is a mismatch with this plant. It doesn't have equal leaves, no explanation for the different colours, belladonna's bracts don't hug the berry, and they are pointy. The root is wrong, too, seems more like a tree or shrub root, looks like a calloused foot.

To me the Dana Scott identification of Syzygium aromaticum seems to fit much better than any of the other identifications I've seen reported for this plant (St. John's Wort, black nightshade, etc). The only problem I see is that only the clove top shows and is shown larger than it would be in comparison to the leaves. I think the largeness could be to show what part of the plant is used, where to find it on the plant, and that one is generally enough in terms of usage. The fact that it is not 100% obvious is perhaps an attempt to keep the knowledge semi-hidden from the casual observer.



Is there a better fit for this plant drawing? It's not striking me as familiar other than the clove top, and there is also the 'clavus' connection with the word clove and the calloused foot look of the root. But it's not perfect, so I'm open to a better identification. I find that a lot of plant diagrams strike me as looking like weeds I am familiar with in North America, but they are old world plants originally, but the ID of cloves would not fit that pattern. However cloves have been used for millennia, so I could see it as a known plant, just as we know it today, at least the part that is used.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from Auslasser's herbal.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from Egerton 747.

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Cloves (left) and Belladonna (right) from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1621).

Linda

Have you read Diane's post about this plant as cloves?
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(15-08-2016, 11:01 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I keep seeing this diagram identified as Atropa belladonna. I can't see why, everything about the diagram is a mismatch with this plant. It doesn't have equal leaves, no explanation for the different colours, belladonna's bracts don't hug the berry, and they are pointy. The root is wrong, too, seems more like a tree or shrub root, looks like a calloused foot.

To me the Dana Scott identification of Syzygium aromaticum seems to fit much better than any of the other identifications I've seen reported for this plant (St. John's Wort, black nightshade, etc). The only problem I see is that only the clove top shows and is shown larger than it would be in comparison to the leaves. I think the largeness could be to show what part of the plant is used, where to find it on the plant, and that one is generally enough in terms of usage. The fact that it is not 100% obvious is perhaps an attempt to keep the knowledge semi-hidden from the casual observer.



Is there a better fit for this plant drawing? It's not striking me as familiar other than the clove top, and there is also the 'clavus' connection with the word clove and the calloused foot look of the root. But it's not perfect, so I'm open to a better identification. I find that a lot of plant diagrams strike me as looking like weeds I am familiar with in North America, but they are old world plants originally, but the ID of cloves would not fit that pattern. However cloves have been used for millennia, so I could see it as a known plant, just as we know it today, at least the part that is used.

Linda, St. John's wort as an ID is not a bad idea. Note how smooth and rounded the VMS elliptical leaves are. Many species of St. John's wort have that characteristic and most of them also have the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Several species have berries, including the species most often listed as a medicinal plant in old herbals.

Also note the slightly bendy branches on the left and right sides. St. John's wort has that characteristic also. It's a mostly but not completely an upright plant but when the branches get long, they lean a little and there are a couple of species that are somewhat viny and grow almost horizontal. Some of the hypericums have clasping leaves.


In contrast to the VMS image, clove leaves are fairly pointed and the margins often lightly ruffled or irregular. The stems can be reddish but the leaves do not have that red/green that is so characteristic of St. John's wort. Clove is much more treelike and I'm not aware of any clove species with clasping leaves—the leaves are petioled. Also, the clove "fruit" is quite narrow and most herbals draw it that way, whereas the VMS drawing lacks that detail.


I'm not saying plant 1v is St. John's wort, there are a few other possibilities, but I do believe it fits the VMS drawing better than clove.

(15-08-2016, 12:32 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from Auslasser's herbal.

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Cloves (left) and Belladonna (right) from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1621).

Hi Marco,

I think I see your point, being that the belladonna drawings provided match better to the manuscript than the clove drawings do, however, the pointy non-clasping bracts still exist in both supplied representations of the belladonna, except maybe for one berry in each. Are you suggesting that is the commonality? That they decided to pick that one common berry to draw even though it is representative of only 5-10% of the available representations in both? The different sized leaves are still in the coloured version (and it is the more correct representation to reality), there is still no explanation of the colour difference used in the manuscript, both were drawn with leaf veins, (again except perhaps one in each), and both roots don't match the diagram either.

I'll counter with this drawing of Clove (Qaranful) (bottom) from the Aja'ib al-makhluqat ("Wonders of Creation") by Muhammad al-Qazwini (b. Zakariya) c. 1203-1283) :


I was quite interested to see it myself, as it has both the hairy root and only shows the tops of the cloves.

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(15-08-2016, 02:13 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda

Have you read Diane's post about this plant as cloves?
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Yes, although I am not sure of the other plant being indicated, nor the robes/clavus connection. But we appear to agree regarding the basic identification.

I had at one time thought clavus referred to claws, but rather it refers to nails (the type you hammer, which the clove spice resembles, hence the name). I found it funny that in English, there is a double "pun" you can make with the root, both with regard to the callouses and the toe nails homophone connection.

Hi Linda,
I had no particular point in mind. I just think it's interesting to compare the Voynich ms with other ancient images.

Thank you for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.! Eastern herbals are not very familiar to me, since they are not easy to search online and I can't read Arabic nor Persian. From the botanical point of view, this illustration does not seem very informative to me: the plant at the middle of that page is identical to the one at the bottom, but for the color of the berries. If I understand correctly, it is filzahraj /"fila zahra" i.e. lycium:
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I don't think it should be that similar to cloves, but I am not an expert so I may very well be wrong.

Also, I don't think this page represents hairy roots, but green grass at the base of the plants.

(15-08-2016, 06:23 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda, St. John's wort as an ID is not a bad idea. Note how smooth and rounded the VMS elliptical leaves are. Many species of St. John's wort have that characteristic and most of them also have the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Several species have berries, including the species most often listed as a medicinal plant in old herbals.

Also note the slightly bendy branches on the left and right sides. St. John's wort has that characteristic also. It's a mostly but not completely an upright plant but when the branches get long, they lean a little and there are a couple of species that are somewhat viny and grow almost horizontal. Some of the hypericums have clasping leaves.


In contrast to the VMS image, clove leaves are fairly pointed and the margins often lightly ruffled or irregular. The stems can be reddish but the leaves do not have that red/green that is so characteristic of St. John's wort. Clove is much more treelike and I'm not aware of any clove species with clasping leaves—the leaves are petioled. Also, the clove "fruit" is quite narrow and most herbals draw it that way, whereas the VMS drawing lacks that detail.


I'm not saying plant 1v is St. John's wort, there are a few other possibilities, but I do believe it fits the VMS drawing better than clove.

Hi JKP

I have a species of St. John's wort in my yard, and I don't find it to resemble the drawing at all. I just went out to look at it. The fruit tends to be surrounded by the dried leftovers of the flower petals, but even disregarding that, the fruit is not round, it is elongated and comes to a point, and has little tufted hairs coming off it. The bracts are extremely thin and pointy and do not hug the fruit but create a little star. For every leaf, which is more pill shaped than ovate, there is a stem or another leaf coming from it, kind of a fractal growth habit not indicated in the drawing, and they are not the same size. The secondary stems point upward, and although some of the plants are 2 feet high they are still at most 3-4 inches in diameter at the top. There is really no red to them except for petals and leaves which have dried out and/or turned to fall colours. The roots are thin and stringy. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the one I know and appears to be the most common, at least in North America although it is native to Europe.

I did find You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.online, native to Eurasia, which does have rounder leaves and a round fruit which does appear to turn dark, but the the little bits are still there on top and no huggy bracts, it's more like a whorl of smaller leaves sitting flat or convex below the berries. The other leaves don't seem to have the fractal aspect of the one I know and seem to reach similar size, so that is much closer. Perhaps other varieties are a better match to the diagram in the berry department. Do you know the species names of the ones you are describing?



I can see what you're saying though. That second species might make a better match than clove to some.

The clove ID is not perfect, for sure. I would love to find one that fits better but so far I still have problems with all the suggested alternatives.

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(15-08-2016, 08:01 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Linda,
I had no particular point in mind. I just think it's interesting to compare the Voynich ms with other ancient images.

Thank you for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.! Eastern herbals are not very familiar to me, since they are not easy to search online and I can't read Arabic nor Persian. From the botanical point of view, this illustration does not seem very informative to me: the plant at the middle of that page is identical to the one at the bottom, but for the color of the berries. If I understand correctly, it is filzahraj /"fila zahra" i.e. lycium:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I don't think it should be that similar to cloves, but I am not an expert so I may very well be wrong.

Also, I don't think this page represents hairy roots, but green grass at the base of the plants.

No problem, Marco, although I'm lost as to when it is actually from...they say Zakariya al-Qazwini died in 1283 on one page, another says the herbal is from early 15th century, and I just saw another that says 17th century. Maybe discussing copies thereof?

I agree with you on the second plant looking very much like the third, and actually is a better match in terms of the leaves and berry darkness. I hadn't looked into the other two plants on the page yet, interesting, we are back to nightshades again.

Maybe I haven't looked into them enough. I have two plants in that family here where I am right now, but one has serrated leaves, the other has lobed leaves some of the time, and the berries hang down in groups off little stalks in both cases. It doesn't look like a potato, tomato, pepper plant or a goji berry but I'm sure there are a lot more.

You're probably right about the grass. Thanks for posting that page, I was having trouble finding a larger image.

I found this: Lycium ferocissimum (African Boxthorn) which actually, upside down, from certain angles, the berry looks quite similar to the diagram although the leaves are a different shape, a bit closer together, and it's got thorns. Interesting, these leaves and berries look more like the drawing of the cloves. Oh well. Neither seems to be the right match.


I guess I'll keep looking for more species.

Hmmm. Lycium sandwicense

If I were to rate the accuracy of the VMS drawings (the ones that are more recognizable) on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give them about a 6.5 or 7 (depending on the drawing). They're not bad for their time and some details are drawn better than their predecessors.

If I were to rate the Al-Qazwini plants on the same scale, most of them wouldn't do much better than a three. Which makes me suspect that any resemblance between the VMS plant and the Al-Qazwini clove plant is probably coincidental.


I'm not ruling out that the VMS illustrator had access to other sources, but my overall feeling is that they were used more as references than as sources from which to slavishly copy. It's one of the reasons the VMS holds my attention. If it were a mere copy, it would be uninteresting.

(16-08-2016, 03:12 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If I were to rate the accuracy of the VMS drawings (the ones that are more recognizable) on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give them about a 6.5 or 7 (depending on the drawing). They're not bad for their time and some details are drawn better than their predecessors.

If I were to rate the Al-Qazwini plants on the same scale, most of them wouldn't do much better than a three. Which makes me suspect that any resemblance between the VMS plant and the Al-Qazwini clove plant is probably coincidental.


I'm not ruling out that the VMS illustrator had access to other sources, but my overall feeling is that they were used more as references than as sources from which to slavishly copy. It's one of the reasons the VMS holds my attention. If it were a mere copy, it would be uninteresting.

I have to agree with you on that!

The interlinear description comments:

Quote:Part of this drawing (root and leaves only) is repeated on Pharma page f102r1[3,2].

The plant looks basically normal, except for the very peculiar root.

And suggests

Quote:Atropa Belladona (deadly nightshade) , [i]Hyoscyamus niger (henbane) , [i]Solanum nigrum (black nightshade)

, Solanum dulcamara (bittersweet) , and perhaps other somewhat less likely species such as Withania somnifera and Physalis alkekengi. ETC[/i][/i]

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