The Voynich Ninja

(14-01-2026, 11:30 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[it is] quite improbable for me that VM was made especially to be sold later to some wealthy buyer.

I disagree.  The mere fact that it is on vellum and full of purely decorative elements already says that this copy we have was made to be sold, or on commission of someone other than the author.  If it were for the Author's use only, it would have been on paper (still expensive, but much cheaper than vellum) and would have only "technical" diagrams, drawn by the author himself.

(14-01-2026, 11:30 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the 1400s it wasn't old and [...] I believe in the 1400s people would find unknown script not exciting at all. [...] So they wouldn't really be obsessive about VM like we are.

I agree. There were many books around then with scripts which even educated men could not read or identify. Some real (Georgian, Armenan, Persian, Indian, ...) and many fake ones. 

Note that by the 1400s the Silk Road trade route, that brought merchandise to Europe from all the way to China, was already centuries old.  Some oriental books must have came to Europe too, along with the spices and silk...

(14-01-2026, 11:38 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think [it would be valuable in the 1400s]. Even though it is "poor" on the poor to excellent scale in many respects, it is still a book with 150ish(?) pages of drawings. [...] It's not a commissioned book by royalty level of workmanship for sure, but it is very grand in its amount of images. [...] I doubt many people would have seen many books full of paintings/drawings they could afford to purchase, never mind to the extent of the VMS. [...]

But at the time there would have been many books full of drawings on the market, with higher material/calligraphic/artistic quality than the VMS.  And many would contain undecipherable stuff or fantastic claims.  Like the "alchemists herbals".

Drawings of VMS quality were cheap. In my estimate, most of the VMS Scribe's time was spent on copying the text.  Except for Cosmo and Zodiac, where there is very little text but a lot of nymphs and stars, the drawings must have taken only a small fraction of the total time spent on on any page.

Thus the market value of the VMS at the time would have been much lower than that of an alchemist's herbal.  I doubt it would have been sold for more than what the Author spent to create it.

(14-01-2026, 11:38 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.paintings

The only evidence we have for the date of the painting indicates that it was done after the book had been incorrectly bound, and thus probably when the Author was no longer around.  

Thus, if and when the Author himself tried to sell it, it must have been unpainted.  That alone put it on a lower price tier. And there were many unpainted illustrated books on the market too. (They are under-represented in libraries today precisely because people generally put much lower value on them.)

The painting was possibly done by some later owner or book dealer precisely to increase its market value. 

(15-01-2026, 12:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing that the Voynich MS had in its past, perhaps even from the very beginning, but no longer has now, is the promise of a great secret.

(15-01-2026, 12:23 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Plus we find it very wonderous even now, I can only imagine it would be then also. [...] Why would anyone sell a book that turns things into gold for any sum?

At the time there were also many alchemical treatises going around.  They generally came with the implicit or explicit promise of that secret.  The VMS did not even do that...

(15-01-2026, 12:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[The promise of a great secret] was perhaps why Rudolf paid about 2 kg of gold ($ 250,000 in today's money) for it (assuming he did).  Not so much because it was a Roger Bacon. Bacon was just one of many 'old and wise' authors, and he had other Bacons already.

I quite disagree here.

First, I don't believe at all that Rudolf ever owned the VMS, much less that he paid 600 ducats for it.  From my reading of Marci's letter, I believe that Raphael never saw that book that Rudolf would have paid 600 ducats for.  He had just had heard about that purchase, and guessed that it must have been the VMS -- for no other reason that Rudolf's "Bacon's Book" too was said to be cryptic.

Second, the records you uncovered yourself seem to show that Rudolf may have paid 600 ducats for a whole collection of books.  That already should undermine our trust on Raphael's claim.  And IIUC there is still no mention anywhere that said collection included a book by Bacon, or a book that could be the VMS.

And third, I cannot see Rudolf, gullible as he was, paying 600 ducats for an ugly book of unknown provenance, without any indication that it could contain alchemical knowledge or a gold-making recipe.

IF Rudolf did indeed pay 600 ducats for the VMS, it must have been only because he had been convinced that it was a Roger Bacon's original.  I think Raphael's comment even implies that much. 

And that is also the only reason why Wilfrid was so interested in this book in the first place. And why he tried to convince the world, sincerely or not, that it was indeed a Bacon original.

(14-01-2026, 11:38 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To me, Barschius seems more "under the spell" of the wonder of the VMS like we, and presumably those before were. After all Marci says he (Barschius) toiled with it until his death.

Indeed, people often became obsessed with specific cryptic books (or books that they just believed contained hidden secrets).  Se John Dee's obsession with the Book of Soyga and its mysterious letter tables.  Or the uncountable hours that many scholars spent looking for secrets in the Bible, through gematria and numerology.

(14-01-2026, 11:30 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Today it is valuable because it is old and has unknown script.

(15-01-2026, 12:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Today [...] it is famous because it is uncrackable, where it should not have been that difficult. Its monetary value is from its fame and uniqueness.

I sort of disagree here too.  Today the VMS is highky valuable only because of all the fame and attention it has gathered over the last 80 years or so, and mostly in the last 40 years.

There are still several other old uncrackable manuscripts out there, like the Rohonc codex and the Tables of Soyga were until a couple of decades ago.  But since they did not get much attention among the wide public, their prices in the rare book market would be only a small fraction of the VMS's.

(15-01-2026, 12:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... It is impossible to put a price on it. But it would be easily 5 - 10 times what Rudolf II paid for it. (This is not my opinion - I asked an actual rare book dealer at the Frankfurt book fair a couple of years ago. He was a friend of the Siloe managers and very familiar with the Voynich MS).

Yes, I can believe that *today* it would sell for a few million dollars, or more -- but only for the reason above. 

On the other hand, IIRC Wilfrid tried to sell it for that much, and failed -- even though he was still able to claim that it was a Roger Bacon lost book.

(15-01-2026, 12:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is what a rich oil sheik [...] would give for it.

A rich oil sheik could afford that much for a collectible, sure.  But I think he would rather buy a gold-plated Lamborghini, a penthouse in Monaco, a soccer team, or an island in the Caribbean, instead of an old ugly book full of ketchup stains and worm holes.  Even one with so much popular fame...

(14-01-2026, 11:38 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can we set a date on when [Barschius's] level of interest would not be present in such a curious object?

That would be an interesting thing to know. 

But I vaguely recall the finding of a prehistoric cave in France(?) with a collection of dozens of fossils and other curious items.  A Neolithic Kunstkammer...

All the best, --stolfi

(15-01-2026, 08:44 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I disagree.  The mere fact that it is on vellum and full of purely decorative elements already says that this copy we have was made to be sold, or on commission of someone other than the author.  If it were for the Author's use only, it would have been on paper (still expensive, but much cheaper than vellum) and would have only "technical" diagrams, drawn by the author himself.

The main reason why people continued to use parchment when paper was available and a lot less expensive, is because it was considered to be the more durable material.
The choice meant that the person creating it (or commissioning it - which I doubt) wanted it to last.

Indeed, it would not have just been for personal use, but sale or not does not seem to be decided by this.

(15-01-2026, 08:48 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The main reason why people continued to use parchment when paper was available and a lot less expensive, is because it was considered to be the more durable material.

Indeed vellum with iron-gall ink would have been more resistant to wear and water spills.  That is why it was used for documents like deeds, decrees, contracts, diplomas, state records; and for books that had to last for many decades. Like herbals and medical books meant to be sold or used for a lifetime...

But there are plenty of paper books and documents from that time that have survived in very good condition.  Like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that has been mentioned before on this forum.


Considering the breadth of topics and the apparent independence of the sections, I would guess that the Author was already of middle age or older when he had the VMS made.  But then paper should have been good enough for his own use, to the rest of his life.

And even if the Author decided to use vellum for durability, it would not justify all the decoration and blank space.

It is possible that the Author decided to put the VMS to vellum because he intended to leave it for his heirs, rather than sell it.  But somehow that does not seem right to me either...

All the best, --stolfi

(15-01-2026, 08:44 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Today the VMS is highky valuable only because of all the fame and attention it has gathered over the last 80 years or so, and mostly in the last 40 years.

By the way, recently I learned that the Mona Lisa is the most famous painting in the world only because it was stolen from the Louvre in 1911.  Until then it was only one among many paintings by Leonardo, and not particularly famous...

All the best, --stolfi

Some insightful thoughts here. I'll try to add some stuff.

1) Writing the Voynich Manuscript in the 1400s hoping that one day you'll find some rich patron who would buy it would be very risky.
 More possible option is that it was ordered by some rich man for him. But if he was rich then why did he accept such a low quality drawings? As I still understand vellum was much more expensive than work hours of the scribe. So if he could afford vellum then why not a better artist???

2) if it was ordered by a wealthy man then in theory he should understand it. I can't imagine a scenario in which someone asks for gibberish to be made for him
  So "done on order" option strongly suggests for me that the text is meaningful. Which brings a lot of problems

3) VM had a big lot of luck that it survived. A Medieval text with poor drawings and unreadable text had a big chance to find its final place in some Renaissance dumpster. If there were ever similar manuscripts it could be their fate.

4) people like Georg Baresch or Athanasius Kircher had different mentality than people from Medieval Ages. They belong to early Enlightenment period, their lives overlap with lives of people like Isaac Newton. For them VM was roughly the same as it is for as - relic, antiquity, riddle, treasure, enigma, sphinx which probably wasn't for medieval people

5) I am not sure sure that people expected to find in VM some "big stuff" like recipe for philosopher's stone, ways to communicate with angels or meaning of life. Yes, some people expect it even today but they are "specific" people   A rational man in the past would probably think from the imagery that it is some medicinal book for pregnant woman and nothing more. Or not?

6) If we assume that Rudolph bought it for 600 ducats, then he bought it with other books in a lot.

7) Speaking of Rudolph, I feel that John Dee and Edward Kelley were somehow involved. In the past I considered that it was them who faked it but now I think they were just involved.  Karl Widemann who presumably sold the books for 600 ducats/florins to Rudolph was a buddy of Kelley. And I feel it could be Dee and Kelley who suggested Roger Bacon. They were English just like Bacon and it seemed reliable that they were experts in English manuscripts and could find some rare one. In fact they perfectly realized that VM is not English, found it somewhere else and cheated Rudolph assigning it to a famous man for a better price.

Does it make sense?

(15-01-2026, 12:42 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Writing the Voynich Manuscript in the 1400s hoping that one day you'll find some rich patron who would buy it would be very risky.

Very risky. All your effort might have been for nothing. For that reason I am of the opinion that the manuscript could not have been written in one go but must have been written in sections. I proposed a scenario earlier about how it could have been done. [ You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ]

Quote:For that reason I am of the opinion that the manuscript could not have been written in one go but must have been written in sections

I would agree. We routinely treat VM as some monolith and Opus Magnum while in reality it can be several, distinct works sewn together by someone unconscious of their nature.

(15-01-2026, 12:42 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.was rich then why did he accept such a low quality drawings?

Collecting can be a passion. It is in your blood. It doesn't matter what you collect you will want to go to great lengths to acquire a rare or unique object and ensure that it goes in your collection and in no-one else's. Poor quality is no barrier. Look at all the people why buy rusty classic cars just to restore them. It is human nature. The same must also have been so in the 15th Century. So long as the manuscript was marketed as a unique piece from some distant land that claimed to have knowledge about the secret sciences then it would have been received with great curiosity.

(15-01-2026, 12:42 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But if [the person who commissioned the book] was rich then why did he accept such a low quality drawings?

Even if there was such a patron, maybe he did not accept the result.  We don't know...

Or maybe he commissioned the books because of the contents ("I heard that you found some very interesting medical and herbal books in that Zoroastrian monastery that you visited on Mount Havergal.  Would you make me a copy? I will pay five ducats for the set.")  Then he may have been disappointed by the "artistic quality" but not enough to refuse the result.

Quote:vellum was much more expensive than work hours of the scribe.

 

Was it?  Based on other posts, and considering the poor quality of the material, I would guess that the cost of the vellum was the equivalent of ~$1 per page, adjusting for cost of living.  Each page must have taken about 1 hour on average.   For $1 per hour, I suppose one could get only a starving student, or the notary public of a 50-home village, or a junior monk from the St. Outinthebunnies Monastery... 

Quote:So "done on order" option strongly suggests for me that the text is meaningful. Which brings a lot of problems

Does it? On the contrary, it avoids the many problems of the "gibberish" theory...

Quote:[For people like Georg Baresch or Athanasius Kircher] the VM was roughly the same as it is for us - relic, antiquity, riddle, treasure, enigma, sphinx which probably wasn't for medieval people

I don't quite agree... for starters, those thing you listed are quite diferent concepts:

• a relic or antiquity is a physical object that is valuable because of its physical history, including who made or commissioned it and what it went through. Like the helmet of Sutton Hoo or the toothbrush of Marilyn Monroe. 
  
• riddle, enigma, or sphynx is interesting because of its contents, irrespective of its physical realization.
  

A relic is a concept distinct also from an art piece, a physical object that is valuable largely or mostly for its aesthetic qualities.  Like the Sistine Chapel or the Hello Kitty design.  The difference is evident in the way the things are treated.  A relic must be preserved intact, just as it was first found, minus dirt; replacing any parts, even damaged or missing, would be a mortal sin.  And only the original has any value; copies are practically worthless.  In contrast, an art piece is expected to be restored, with any lost bits replaced by fake ones, so as to preserve its good looks.  And copies of an art piece can be as valuable as the original, to the extent that they look the same.

Medieval manuscripts are now treated as relics, like archaeological finds. Beinecke would not even think of "restoring" the VMS like a museum would restore a painting.  The mere idea of plugging the worm holes with new vellum and rewriting faded parts would be sacrilege.  

But this view of medieval manuscripts as relics seems to be rather modern.  I doubt that it was common in the 1600s.  Maybe a manuscript written by Roger Bacon in his own hand would be treated as such.  But most manuscripts were written by anonymous and unimportant scribes anyway, so why would people care for them as physical objects? Only the contents mattered.  And indeed Jacobus wrote his ex-libris on page 1, Marci or someone else scribbled tables of letters in the margins,  someone wrote the month names and marginalia of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f116v, someone crudely painted it over, someone BEEP...

Quote:[People in the Enlightenment] had different mentality [about books] than people from Medieval Ages.

Not sure I agree here, either.  Many "scientific" books were written in Europe before 1400, and the Caliphate alchemical and mathematical books were avidly sought, translated and circulated.   When Pope Clement heard of Roger Bacon's research, he ordered the Friar to put them on writing, which resulted in several large books being sent to Rome.

Quote:I am not sure sure that people expected to find in VM some "big stuff" like recipe for philosopher's stone, ways to communicate with angels or meaning of life.

I think that Barschius's letter gives some clues about this question.  Medicine then was a big thing, but its treatments were notoriously unreliable.  Barschius guessed that the book contained medical knowledge obtained in "Egypt or other oriental parts" and unknown in "Germany", and thus its decipherment could yield new remedies that could cure diseases for which European doctors had no cure.

Quote:Speaking of Rudolph, I feel that John Dee and Edward Kelley were somehow involved. In the past I considered that it was them who faked it but now I think they were just involved.

Their involvement was just a theory created and pushed by Wilfrid, who needed a plausible story for how a Roger Bacon original could have ended up in Rudolph's hands.  Dee was from Oxford, where Rober Bacon had been too, and he was know to be a collector of Bacon's books.   Dee and his sidekick Kelley did spend some time in Prague, but AFAIK there is no evidence that Dee ever sold Rudolph anything, much less a Bacon original.  

The two had left England in a hurry, on (false?) rumors that charges of heresy ware being prepared against Dee. They traveled with their spouses from France to Poland and then to Prague in a large cart, sort of the equivalent of our mobile home.  I doubt that there was much space in it for Dee's library.

Quote:They perfectly realized that VM is not English, found it somewhere else and cheated Rudolph assigning it to a famous man for a better price. Does it make sense?

It is quite possible that Widemann did that, alone or with Kelley's help.   He was an antique book dealer, a profession that is not famous for its high moral and ethical standards.  And Kelley was a fraudster and con-man through and through.

But I doubt that Dee would have engaged in that sort of thing.  From his diary, he seemed to be genuinely honest and religious.  And, besides, Rudolph got such a dislike of him on their first and only meeting that Dee was banned from Prague and spent all his stay at the estate of a friendly Count.

All the best, --stolfi

On Jorge's notes (having trouble with the quote of a quote tech on forum..)
The "secret to sell to a rich guy" theory, in the way some (usually newer) people present it, has always been bothersome to me for some of the points you highlight. Mainly, Alchemy.
There is no need at all for.. well the VMS.. to pull this off. You just need Alchemy, and a convincing guy to sell it. 

What I could see, if a secret was involved, is that the secret is "from far away". Something people had no access to but believed in (like later on people doing all sorts with "Hieroglyphs"). 
Pseudo eastern writings were popular in art of the time due to people believing it was the language Jesus spoke (+ "from far away"). So "from far away" was a market you could see someone tapping into. Even in the letters we see great interest in these mysterious plants and what their medicinal powers may be, maybe that is part of the "secret", it doesn't have to be so grand as "the philosophers stone".

We should also probably separate what it may have been made to be sold as, and what it may have been sold later as (if either are true). Was it always the "Cipher Manuscript" as it is called now (as its "wonder") or did it's label change over time and have different "wonder"? I think so personally. Just a grand(ish) looking "leechbooke" from far away full of things that looked exotic I would imagine would be very valuable.

TLDR - A secret could just be knowledge they had no access to but desired, I don't think its Alchemy related.