The Voynich Ninja

(09-01-2026, 06:38 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The overall layout and every detail of the drawing says "map". 

(shortened for clarity but - whole post)

Ok, I think we are on the same page after all. It's just "map" and "buildings" implies literal. Maybe I just use another term in "story" but a "imaginary/mythical/symbolic" map/place is pretty much what I was getting at. I think we have a theme throughout the map which tells a "story", for lack of a better term. But a drawing of a mythical place would do the same sort of thing.

In regards to the theory, I never put it out there as I feel like I debunked myself. I just meant that the thing I debunked had more legs than "literal map" but I think we just crossed terms. The theory, if you were interested, was on the cave of the patriarchs which houses the tombs of 6 biblical figures. You can match some details well and I should imagine it would be a site of holy pilgrimage with enough details for a "map" and 6 things being connected to the heavens would fit. Overall though I thought I was probably stretching and over fitting.. a lot. 

Personally I'm on team "vessel" by "(if it looks like a) duck law" but I think a convincing argument for building needs to find that connection, why 6 things surrounding/supporting the sky fits.. because they don't look like buildings.

(02-01-2026, 06:12 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interestingly though, the drawer seems to recycle some aspects between buildings in the ROS and pharma vessels, whatever that might mean.

This is a trend we see throughout the VM. The artist adapts, recombines, recycles and stacks building blocks of imagery. Clearly he had access to a variety of source images, but that does not necessarily mean they were used in the same or even a similar context as in their original source. I see no reason why the same depictions should not be containers in Pharma and towers or whatever fantastic architectural feature in ROS. I think we should not over-interpret this. The artist had some source imagery (of vessels?) at hand he found interesting and thought it was fitting for the job.

The flower of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. shares some strikingly similarities with the rosette in the upper left corner. But that neither means that the rosette is a flower nor that the flower is whatever the rosette is supposed to be.

(10-01-2026, 02:15 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I see no reason why the same depictions should not be containers in Pharma and towers or whatever fantastic architectural feature in ROS. I think we should not over-interpret this. The artist had some source imagery (of vessels?) at hand he found interesting and thought it was fitting for the job.

As I am a fan of probabilities: It is much more likely that he wanted to establish a connection that runs through the entire book. This is simply not understood because there appears to be no logic that ties everything together. But there is, for example the theory that he is writing about the vascular structures of plants – then everything fits together. I don't know if that's it, but it shows that there are simple ways in which everything could belongs together.

I agree there is a strong artistic connection throughout the VM but I would be very careful to derive any meaning from that.
We cannot rule out a literal connection between the pharma vessels and the rosette towers. But the discovery of vascular plant anatomy is strongly linked to the invention of the microscope and attributed to Malphigi and Grew in the mid-late 17th century. The Voynich theory that the vessels somehow depict optical instruments exists but I would call it anachronistic and very unlikely compared to simply being containers for plant-derived substances.

(11-01-2026, 08:08 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is much more likely that he

Who is "he"?  The Author, or the Scribe?

Quote:wanted to establish a connection that runs through the entire book.

Why do you think so?  Apart from the decorative elements and the script/language, I see no connection or intersection between the major sections of the book -- Herbal, Pharma, Cosmo, Bio, Zodiac, and Stars; except for the well-known "echoes" of Pharma in the Herbal.

Indeed, the breadth of topics and this apparent absence of shared contents tells me that the contents does not come from the Author's own experience  or elucubrations.  Rather, each section seems to have been copied or abstracted from a separate book.   Except that the plant sketches in Pharma may be based on the Author's first-hand observations.

All the best, --stolfi


All the best, --stolfi

(11-01-2026, 12:44 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Indeed, the breadth of topics and this apparent absence of shared contents tells me that the contents does not come from the Author's own experience  or elucubrations.  Rather, each section seems to have been copied or abstracted from a separate book.   Except that the plant sketches in Pharma may be based on the Author's first-hand observations.

That's nothing more than a theory, your theory.

The fact that certain things on different pages can be found on others. The vessels in the middle of the large map, the roots of the plants on the pages with the vessels,  vessels from these pages in the Balneological Section, even circles from the pages before the Balneological Section can be found in the  Balneological Section, the distortions in astrology. Nymphs in astrology. All of this indicates that something belongs together here.

Sorry, but it's just striking, everything seems to be interwoven, and why not, it's one ‘manuscript’ in one (or two) ciphers.

(11-01-2026, 05:18 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's nothing more than a theory, your theory.

Practically every claim about the VMS is nothing more than a theory, somebody's theory.  Basically, the only things we can treat as "facts" are the digital images and the C14 date for the vellum.

Quote:The fact is that certain things on different pages can be found on others.

Not really.  Some drawings on some pages have varying degrees of similarity to drawings on other pages.  Whether they represent the same object or concept is "nothing more than a theory". 

There are several You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..  It may be tempting to say that they are the same plant.  But not even that is certain.  The Scribe may have copied the same drawing even though the two instances referred to different plants.  That is, the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may be about Bruttadonna, and f102r1[3,2] was supposed to be Silphium; but the Author had no idea of what the roots of either looked like, so he told the Scribes to copy any root from any alchemist's herbal -- and the Herbal and Pharma scribes happened to use the same book as crib...

Quote:The vessels in the middle of the large map

You mean, the onion-dome towers in the margin of the Pharma pages. 

Quote:vessels from these pages in the Balneological Section

There are no such things.  There are some details in Bio that look like stacks of cylinders and rings, and some Pharma jars also are stacks of cylinders and rings.  The similarity ends there; everything else is very different.

Quote:circles from the pages before the Balneological Section can be found in the  Balneological Section

Where? I don't see any such thing.

Quote:Distortions in astrology. Nymphs in astrology.

The same Scribe produced Cosmo, Zodiac, and Bio, in that order.  We can see the evolution of his "artistic skills".  His first nymphs were abysmally crude, but at some point after Taurus he learned to draw a passable naked woman, and used that same drawing to the end of Bio. (But of course this too is nothing more than a theory...)

Quote:it's one ‘manuscript’ in one (or two) ciphers.

That the VMS is in cipher is also nothing more than a theory. A theory born of desperation, from the nothing-more-than-a-theory that the language is "European" and the fact that the words don't look at all like "European" words...

All the best, --stolfi

It's news to me that I believe it must be a European language, but this thread is supposed to be about the imagery, not whether it is a cypher.  If anyone wants to continue that line, please start a new thread or use an existing one (I am sure this claim was discussed in another thread only a few months ago but I can't find it)

(12-01-2026, 12:59 AM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am sure this claim was discussed in another thread only a few months ago but I can't find it

And that is a recurrent problem for us users too... 

All the best, --stolfi

didelideli I've a theory   


Yes, these are all just theories. But the people writing here are convinced of their theories to varying degrees. Even so, this does not change the fact that we actually know very, very little.

And even the most improbable thing can be true as long as there are no facts to disprove it.

So, one wonders what we are actually discussing here. Naybe only the degree of our own conviction...