The Voynich Ninja

(26-03-2016, 09:49 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(25-03-2016, 01:31 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interpreting this as a baptism scene raises a lot of questions:
- why is the woman to be baptized wearing some kind of translucent skirt or vessel around her legs and left hand?
- what is the object in het right hand and why is she holding it?
- why is she only with her feet in the water while the suggested parallel pose is clearly all about submerging the head?
- why is she being grabbed by the eye instead of on top of the head?
- why is the woman who performs the ceremony naked, while at the same time standing on land?

Another illustration that parallels the most bizarre element:
some kind of translucent skirt or vessel around the legs and left hand of the person to be baptized


Claricia Psalter, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Augsburg, Germany, 1200 ca, fol.10r

1) This is no parallel to the 'skirt' of the VMs, it is just the water of river Jordan Jesus is standing in, the green of the psalter is what is blue in the VMs.

2) The 'baptizing woman' is using her left arm which would  never have been used for a blessing, cp. John the Baptist in the psalter

The idea of this as a Christian baptism of the type practiced in medieval and Renaissance Europe is just an idea.

To be more, it would need to find support in the historical record and in the record of relevant imagery, I should think. According to an Anabaptist site adult baptism didn't begin in Europe before the sixteenth century.  

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Records of forced baptism of adults (e.g. of Jews) tell us that the ceremony was always performed by a person licensed by canon law to do this, was performed in the normal way (i.e. only the head was baptised; nakedness not required) and used water blessed by a priest or higher member of the hierarchy. In theory anyone could baptise; in practice laymen only did so when an infant was in extremis.

Images of Christ being baptised by John represent a particular item in Christian art, and it was not applied generically to suggest baptism per se.

If the picture were being argued a sixteenth century Anabaptist image, we'd need some codicological or other solid evidence to date the manuscript so late - if it were to be thought first enunciated in Latin Europe.

Then we'd need some details from the historical data about whether or not Anabaptists were in the habit of baptising groups of women naked, and of allowing another woman in that state to perform the ceremony.

Otherwise, if it isn't sixteenth century, it isn't a European Christian adult baptism, I suppose.

My own view is that the 'ladies' in this section are intended in the same sense that they are in the calendar, but that's by the way.

(25-03-2016, 04:21 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, I have not written that this illustration represents a baptism because I don't think it does. 
In my opinion it is somehow reminiscent of illustrations of baptism, so it is possible that it represents something similar (such as some other kind of ritual purification, as proposed by David).

Thank you for the clarification.

(26-03-2016, 10:37 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) This is no parallel to the 'skirt' of the VMs, it is just the water of river Jordan Jesus is standing in, the green of the psalter is what is blue in the VMs.

Hello Helmut, of course it's the river Jordan!
I don't see how this obvious fact could possibly exclude the relevance of the parallel. The river is represented as a translucent skirt around the legs and left hand of Christ.

If you know of better parallels for this image, please post them so that they can be compared!

MarcoP,

I wouldn't discount your idea, because obviously I have no way of knowing what's really going on here, but just to present an alternative, since you ask for them in your last post:

It could be an image relating to ophtalmology. See the pose in these images (sorry, found on google, no idea where these are originally from):


The instrument being held by the recipient also could be a kind of surgical implement, such as the one n the upper right here:


Again, sorry because I have no source for this set either, it's a Pinterest image labeled as "surgical set of tools 15th century" ... 
Having a very lazy weekend here

(26-03-2016, 02:47 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.MarcoP,

I wouldn't discount your idea, because obviously I have no way of knowing what's really going on here, but just to present an alternative, since you ask for them in your last post:

It could be an image relating to ophtalmology. See the pose in these images (sorry, found on google, no idea where these are originally from):

Thank you VViews. interesting images! The one on the right is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. f.93. The manuscript includes herbals and medical manuals.
You can paste a link in google images (or upload an image to search by) and it returns images identical or similar to the one you linked or uploaded.

if you like those medical tools and blood very much, have a look at John of Ardenne's work (Brit. Lib or at my page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)

After much research, i can not reveal much. But i can say that the baths in the VMS are not of Christian influence.

The tool you are looking for is a forceps (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
According to the wiki info those were a secret invention orginating around 1520.

(However, i believe i have seen the instrument in earlier manuscripts)

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I forgot, did you read this story obout the in blood bathing countess (1560-1614) ?

more: 
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and more links You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Vviews, impressive that you found such parallels. And seasonally appropriate ones at that,  since the patients appear to be holding easter eggs. I agree with david however that forceps were invented later. Also, nude eye surgery? 

I once read one of Diane's comments from which I kind of let my imagination run wild and imagined the bathing ladies as representing geopolitical entities. In this case, the one in the water could be a naval force seeking to expand its territory, hence the map measuring tool. The punch to the eye would be the other force repelling the attack from the land.

Not based on much proof, but it does open up a whole new way of thinking

Congratulations Koen Gh! You spotted the eggs!
As the winner of this informal voynich.ninja egg-hunt, you receive a +1 from me.

(26-03-2016, 01:43 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you know of better parallels for this image, please post them so that they can be compared!

I suppose I have not expressed myself clearly. The important thing about the Voynich image is that the woman has something around her hips and something in her hand and I can't see any of these in the baptism scene. And  John the Baptist is standing in the water as well, as in most Baptism of Jesus depictions  (make a simple Google search) and you can see his feet,  most of the bathing women stand in the water, the 'baptizing woman' does not. There are more differences than likeness.