I'd like to add something here. I've been busy with Currier B and the word "
chedy and
c+hedy" over the past few days. I know that
chedy and
c+hedy are translated as "chedy and shedy" in EVA. For me, the word would be geba and gheba.
in wiktionary I found the following:
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from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.roto Indo European You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.,
Old English: giefan
West Saxon: gifan
Late West Saxon: gyfan
Anglian, Kentish: gefan, geofan, giofan
translated as to give
Sorry Petrasti. I missed this when you originally posted it. I've now added you to the You are not allowed to view links.
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(02-09-2025, 07:35 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What's amazing, however, are the colors that appear exactly the same in Irish (ban and goa or gorm) and are also named after the corresponding flowers. I also know that my alphabet is different from the EVE alphabet, and that many people will doubt it, which is fine.
Coincidences like this are easy to come by: check out Koen's video You are not allowed to view links.
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Hi Tavie,
thanks for adding me to the list.
Here is a brief summary of why I think we are dealing with a Celtic language here:
1) In Old Irish manuscripts, words cluster around a main accent and are usually written as one word. (Indo-European Library ‘Sammlung indoeuropäischer Lehrbücher und Handbücher’ Indo-European Library ‘1. Reihe: Grammatiken’ by Rudolf Thurneysen, Heidelberg 1909)
Examples from the MS408
Ydarchom is also mentioned as single words: y and dar and chom
ocholc+hod also mentioned as single words as: o and chol and c+hod
c+holteol also mentioned as single words as: c+hol and teol
3) The explanation of the plant devas is based on the text from "Plants in the Middle Ages": A Cultural History Böhlau Verlag, Vienna, Cologne and Weimar 2012 by Mr Helmut Birkhan (renowned Celtic scholar and medievalist)
4) The handfasting ceremony according to Celtic and Germanic tradition
5) The sun and the moon in relation to flowers and Celtic beliefs
6) Not a religion known to us, but a pagan worldview
7) The manuscript probably originates from northern Italy. Scottish monasteries and wandering monks explain the origin of the Celtic language in the Italian-Swiss border region.
8) The word elongation as in Irish in MS 408 as e,ee,eee,
9) Irish mutation
for example the t-prosthesis:
Consonant mutation in Celtic languages:
In modern Irish, there is a t- prosthesis in certain circumstances, such as when a masculine noun with a vowel beginning in the nominative singular is preceded by the article (e.g. an t-aer “the air”); or when a feminine noun with an s- in the nominative singular is preceded by the article (e.g. an tsúil “the eye”). There is also an h- prosthesis in Irish under certain circumstances, for example when a masculine noun with a vowel beginning in the nominative plural is preceded by the article (e.g. na héin “the birds” (masculine), na haoiseanna “the ages” (feminine)). The feminine possessive pronoun a in the singular “ihr” triggers an h prosthesis with vowel-initial nouns (e.g. a hathair “her father”), whereas this is not the case with the masculine possessive pronoun a in the singular “sein” (e.g. a athair “his father”).
In Welsh, the h -prosthesis only occurs in words with a vowel beginning. It occurs in words after ei “their”, a “our” and eu “their”: oedran “age”, ei hoedran “their age”. In the traditional counting system, it also occurs in ugain ‘twenty’ after ar (on): un ar hugain ‘twenty-one’ (literally: ‘one on twenty’).
Changes to words with a vowel beginning
In environments where lenition occurs, a word with a vowel beginning remains unchanged: an oíche ‘the night’ (feminine singular nominative noun after definite article)
· an t- uisce ‘of the water’
10) Further examples of Irish grammar that explain the mutations in Voynich
donkey = irischer Asal
the donkey = an t-asal
the donkeys = na hasail
eight donkey = ocht n-asal
on the donkey = ar an asal
on the donkeys = ar na hasail
their donkeys = a Asal
word = Irish focal
the word = a focal
the words = na focail
of the words = na bh-focal
11) Words that can be plausibly explained on the base of repetitions
For example:
gob for berry still exists as goosegob (English dialect)
Goa from gorm Blue (Irish)
ban from ban white
Gol from flower Gol or Gul (Gaelic or used in Persian)
gas from Irish gas The Stalk
gop from Irish gop / beak
an example ‘Goa’:
I looked for the same word on all the picutres with blue flowers, but it usually only appears with blue flowers. One word was goa or geoa. Gorm means blue in Irish.
There were some other flowers without the word goa. However, the word han/hon or hean heon appeared relatively frequently. This suggests that Han/Hon could be purple, which turned out to be correct.
Petrasti is copying from online sources. His paragraph about lenition that included the words
an oíche
an uisce
ó Albain
seanathair
was just a direct copy from You are not allowed to view links.
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Hi Tavi,
I watched the video you recommended
did you read my theory? It would be fantastic
I'd like to give some examples oft the colors blue and white because of repetition
Page You are not allowed to view links.
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choa kaiin dain = goa kam ban = blue striped white
kam is from old Irish "cam" = twisted, bent, curved,crooced
goa and ban I explainted before
f2v:
first line: dain chor = ban gol = white flower
line 5: kchor c+hy daiiin chcthoy = k gol gha baim gTgoa = the flower are also in blue
f33v secound line:
otal dain choy = o tar ban goa = strong white blue
f47r: line 8
tchod choy = t gob goa = blue berry
f56r: line 8
schol choy = gor goa = leaf blue
(04-09-2025, 09:08 PM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Petrasti is copying from online sources. His paragraph about lenition that included the words
an oíche
an uisce
ó Albain
seanathair
was just a direct copy from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
hi dashstofsk, I've tried to combine an explanation of the pre-sound mutation in Voynich with the pre-sound mutation that still exists in Irish today. Unfortunately, I don't speak Gaelic and, (like almost everyone here) I'm using the World Wide Web for my research.
(07-09-2025, 06:11 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.pre-sound mutation in Voynich
Are you sure that you can see 'pre-sound mutation' in the manuscript?
I myself once had the same idea. I suspected, for instance, that words beginning
qo- were just words beginning
o- that required to be prefixed with
q to be made consistent with some grammatical rule for eclipsis or mutation. I spent some time generating affinities between characters and character pairs bridging adjacent words. Searched for occurences where the characters at the start of a word were dependent on the characters at the end of the preceeding word. But I eventually concluded that this was not happening. Concluded that there is nothing in the text of the manuscript that suggested any hint of similarity to Welsh mutation or Gaelic eclipsis and aspiration.
I'd like to give you a few examples, but for that we'll have to leave the EVA alphabet. If you consider EVA an unquestionable basis for translating the Voynich, then things will get difficult.
Let's take the word "ban" dain for white
we find in the manuscript ban as follow:
oban odain
aban ydain
ghoban c+hodain
goban chodain
kaban kadain
aPoban apodain
gban chdain
qoban qodain
Tban tdain
the word kam for jagged and serrated
we find the word as:
akam ykaiin
kokam kokaiin
gokam chokaiin
okam okaiin
hkam skaiin
qokam qokaiin
Tgkam tchkaiin
orkam olkaiin
rkam lkaiin
ghakam c+hykaiin
the word gob chod berry, we fill find as follow:
chod and c+hod
tgob tchod
kgob kchod
chkgob chkchod
qokgob qokchod
qotgob qotchod
orgob olchod
otgob otchod
the same symstem takes place with gol for flower chor
chor and c+hor
tgol tchor
bgol dchor
agol ychor
ogol ochor
qokgol qokchor
pgol pchor
kgol kchor
otgol otchor
okgol okchor
hgol schor
gogol chochor
the word gor chol for leaf
chol and c+hol
agor ychol
ogor ochol
qogor qochol
qokgor qokchol
qotgor qotchol
bgor dchol
hgor schol
kgor kchol
tgor tchol
pgor pchol
otgor otchol
I consider the letters k, p, t, f, b, g, a, o, qo, and h to be pre-sounds, as they can be consistently assigned to words as initial sounds.
We also have a sound change: g ch and gh c+h.
Around 88% of the words that begin with gh c+h also begin with g ch
Also the base words like e.g. gol chor that begin with g ch exist both with the gallow signs before the g and with the gallow sign integrated into the g (tch and cth). I haven't yet checked their frequency. but there seems to be a regularity
(Yesterday, 09:17 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you consider EVA an unquestionable basis for translating the Voynich, then things will get difficult.
Just to clarify and avoid confusion, Eva is just a convention for representing the Voynich glyphs using single-case Latin characters. It does not mean that the Voynich glyphs represent these Latin characters.
The same convention is used here by the forum software to show the Voynich glyphs using the
eva font.
By the way, I am curious how you figured out to represent the
Sh character as you do it. I simply use "Sh"