The Voynich Ninja

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(03-09-2016, 10:30 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Matthew,
Do you happen to know the word length distribution for Aramaic? I have no opinion here, but it's a language that was in constant use in medieval Europe, and is always overlooked.

...


Aramaic is one of the first languages I looked at in relation to the VMS text (along with Hebrew and Greek) and I know many others have mentioned Aramaic, as well. Part of the reason is the similarity of some of the "P"-like shapes to the VMS gallows characters and part of the reason is that it is logical to investigate languages that use non-Latin characters.

Aramaic is also of interest because the grammar is somewhat different from most western languages.
(27-05-2016, 05:16 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To extend on this, let's look at (modern) Mandarin Chinese.
This is based on syllables, and most words consist of two syllables. Some consist of one.

Hi René,

I’m glad to see that you have so much knowledge about Modern Standard Chinese. It is true that most words are two-syllable words, followed by one-syllable words being second most. I searched on Google and found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to support the point.

[attachment=2407]

(27-05-2016, 05:16 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The most frequent syllable is pronounced 'de'. It means 'of', or creates a genetive case. It always follows another syllable, so could be said to appear at the end of a word. This is quite reminiscent of Voynichese dy  which also appears at the end of words. Note that another very frequent syllable is equally pronounced 'de', and equally appears after other syllables, e.g. to create adverbs.

It’s even tricky for some native speakers of Mandarin Chinese to distinguish three “de” when writing. The three “de” in Mandarin Chinese are:

  1. 的, which is used to create genitive case or adjectives.
  2. 地, which is used to create adverbs. See Particle indicating the word preceding it is used as an adverb of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  3. 得, which is used to make a verb or a adjective complete. See Used after a verb or an adjective and before a complement of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
These three are all pronounced as “de”, but they are not inter-changeable. When speaking, there might be slightly different tonal changes so that the listener could understand. However, for untrained ears, it is totally possible that they sound same, and thus are written same. Even for uneducated native speakers, it might be a problem to decide which character to use when writing.

In romanization systems of Mandarin Chinese, “de” is written either standalone, or following the word before it as a suffix. It is never written as a prefix of the next word. Therefore, I think your comparison between “de” and Voynichese dy is reasonable.

However, I have to mention that, “de”’s having three different characters means that historically there were three different pronunciations, one for each. I do not know since when the sounds had merged into single “de”, so I cannot give opinion about whether they are pronounced same in the era of VMS.

(27-05-2016, 05:16 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The second most frequent one is 'yi' which can be pronounced (english) 'ee' or 'yee'. This means 'one', or also the indefinitely article 'a'. This always appears at the start. This is of course reminiscent of Voynichese o-  or qo-  (ee or yee).

It is true that 一 (yī, sounds like English “ee”) means “one” or “a / an” in English, and it is true that it usually appears at the start*. However, I think it is a bit strange if Voynichese o-  or qo- is “one”, because there is no indefinite article or definite article in Chinese. Native speakers treat “一” simply as same as other numbers, and I see no reason they would create a special prefix for it.

* Except in 第一, which means “first”. Chinese creates ordinal numbers by adding ordinal prefix to cardinal numbers.

By the way, when translating from English, indefinite articles are often omitted.

(27-05-2016, 05:16 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The next one is 'shi' with a falling tone, which is the verb 'to be'. Sounds like English 'sure' (kind of). shi with a rising tone is also frequent, and both can mean a variety of things. These could be Voynichese chol  or chor  .
It is surely a coincidence that l  and r  are the medieval symbols for 4 and 2, which are nowadays used in pinyin to indicate falling and rising tones.

I think you mean 是 (shì), which means “to be”. It is really a common word in Modern Standard Chinese, but since when it had this meaning?

I went to check Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which was believed to be written in the 14th century. In this book, 是 means “right, this” but not “to be”. Then I went to check Journey to the West, which was believed to be written in the 16th century. In this book, 是 means “to be” and is used very frequently.

Unfortunately, I do not know where to find a better example of exactly 15th century. However, I think we should take this into consideration when saying “shi” means “to be”.

Shi with a rising tone, or shí in Pinyin, is also frequent. The most common character of shí is probably 十, which means “ten” and “full, complete”**. Meaning of this character did not change like “是” did.

** Chinese traditionally use (chéng, per ten, out of ten) instead of Western percent, so “ten” could also mean “full, complete”.

I think it is a good idea to extract prefixes and suffixes and compare them with known languages. Talking about short syllables, I heard that Thai language is much shorter than Chinese languages. I wonder if there is any approach in comparing Thai to Voynich languages?
Zhe, on the topic of unexpected languages, as a native Chinese, do you have an opinion on the historical likelihood of a Chinese language underlying Voynichese? It is theoretically possible since Eurasia was interconnected long before the 15th century, but on the other hand it would probably be unparalleled.
Hello Zhe (I hope that's right),

many thanks for your feedback. My problem is certainly that I only have some superficial knowledge of modern Mandarin (I was about HSK-1 level but have forgotten much).
Clearly, it would be important to know what the language looked like in the 15th century, and I have not been able to find anything.
I am assuming that Cantonese and Mandarin derive from a common ancestor, but even this I could not find, let alone when this was.
I also heard that the tones were introduced at some point in the past, and I have no information how long ago that was.

I am almost fluent in Thai, and this language has had an alphabet since the 15th Century.
The syllable structure is not quite as consistent as Chinese.
It has more words consisting of one syllable, and also composites of two or more.
In addition, it has numerous words which consist of two syllables that cannot stand alone. (They don't mean anything by themselves).
It also has syllables that are 'closed', i.e. ending with a 'stop' consonant, similar to Cantonese. Finally, it borrows heavily from Sanskrit, which introduces longer words, though these do not appear much in common speech.
(28-09-2018, 11:32 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Zhe, on the topic of unexpected languages, as a native Chinese, do you have an opinion on the historical likelihood of a Chinese language underlying Voynichese? It is theoretically possible since Eurasia was interconnected long before the 15th century, but on the other hand it would probably be unparalleled.

Hi Koen,

In my opinion, if we want to say that Chinese, especially Mandarin Chinese, is the language underlying, there are two things we have to explain:

The first thing is grammatical. The heavy usage of prefixes qo- and o- makes it look less like Chinese.

There do are some prefixes in Chinese, such as the ordinal number prefix dì- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Modern orthography requires the ordinal prefix to be written as a hyphen-connected prefix (see section 4.6.3 of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), so that 第一 “first” is written as dì-yī, different than 地衣 “lichen” dìyī. However, Pinyin orthography is never taught in schools, and is mainly used only in textbooks for language educations, not for native speakers. I think a native speaker, if they were to invent their own orthography, would totally write such prefixes without hyphen.

Prefixes that may be written either as prefix or standalone (if they do not know the modern orthography) also include:
  • 副 “vice-”, 总 “chief-”, 全 “total, all”, 半 “half, semi-”, 泛 “pan-”
  • 不 “not-”, 非 “non-”, 无 “no-, -free”, 反 “anti-”, 可 “-able”, 超 “super-, hyper-, ultra-”
  • 小 “dimunitive”, 老 “vocative for elder person (informal)”, 阿 “vocative for young person”, 大 “informal vocative”
  • 这 “this”, 那 “that”
  • 本 “this, our, current”, 该 “aforementioned”, 我 “our”, 你 “your”
  • 各 “every-”, 每 “per-”, 某 “some-”
  • 很 “very”, 更 “more- (comparative)”, 最 “most- (superlative)”
  • 在 “at, in (usually location or organization)”, 向 “towards”, 为 “for”, 从 “since”, 于 “at, in, on (usually time)”
  • maybe more...
Modern Pinyin orthography requires some of prefixes above to be written standalone, some to be written as prefix. However, for native speakers who are not aware of the orthography, it is totally possible to write either way.

However, I wonder if any of these prefixes could be as frequent as Voynichese qo- or o-.

Among these prefixes, only two are one-vowel-only: 阿 ā [a55] “vocative” and 于 yú [y35] “at, in, on”. 我 “our” in Modern Standard Chinese is wǒ [uo214] and contains two vowels, but might be pronounced as simply ǒ [o] some times in the past or somewhere. But again, in normal texts, they might not appear so frequent as Voynichese o-.

So this is the first thing we have to explain.

This is long, so I’ll put the second thing in the next post.
This is fascinating, I am loving this.
The second thing is phonological. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has 22 consonants and 12 vowels.

22 consonants are:
  • 1 consonant appearing at both beginning and end of a syllable: n (N)
  • 1 consonant appearing only at the end of a syllable: ŋ (NG)
  • 17 consonants appearing only at the beginning of a syllable: p (B), pʰ (P), m (M), f (F), t (D), tʰ (T), l (L), k (G), kʰ (K), x (H), ʈ͡ʂ (ZH), ʈ͡ʂʰ (CH), ʂ (SH), ɻ ~ ʐ (R‌), t͡s (Z), t͡sʰ (C‌), s (S)
  • 3 allophones appearing only at the beginning of a syllable: t͡ɕ (J), t͡ɕʰ (Q), ɕ (X)
12 vowels are:
  • 5 basic vowels appearing either standalone or with other sounds: a (A), e (E), i (I), u (U), y (Ü / YU)
  • 1 vowel appearing only standalone: ɚ̯ (ER)
  • 6 allophones appearing with other sounds: ɛ (A), o (O, allophone of E), ə ~ ɤ (E), ɿ (I), ʅ (I), ʊ (O, allophone of U)*
* (O, allophone of E) means that this sound is spelled as O in Pinyin, but an allophone of E. O could also appear standalone (without consonant) as onomatopoeia and interjection, and is actually pronounced [o], so Hanyu Pinyin assigns it a separate letter for this case. In other cases where O appear with consonants, it is an allophone of either E or U

So the question is, in Voynichese, how many vowels are there in its letters? Though we do not know exactly what letters are consonants or vowels, we could still try to interpret them. EVA transcribes a, e, i, o, and [font=Eva]y[/font] as a, e, i, o and y, so I temporarily assume these five letters are vowels.

It seems that 5 vowels in Voynichese is enough for Mandarin Chinese, if we write no allophones, and write ER as E + R like Pinyin does. However, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. seems very persuasive, at least for me. So, if we see a and [font=Eva]y[/font] as the same, Voynichese would probably have only 4 vowel letters. It may be still OK for Modern Standard Chinese, because we can spell [y] (Ü / YU) as digraph iu, similar to what Pinyin does.

According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Mandarin of 14th century had more vowels. We can see minimal pairs between [-əm], [-am] and [-em], so [ə] was probably not an allophone of [e] by then, which would probably require more letters or digraphs.

Anyway, vowels are basically fine, because sometimes we do not need vowels to be that precisely recorded to understand (example: English). This probably is also true for Voynichese, so I would say that Voynichese letters are probably fine to record vowels of Mandarin Chinese.

However, to represent consonants is much harder.

On voynichese.com, I see only 22 letters to input. I guess these are common letters.

If we remove 5 “vowel” letters a, e, i, o, and [font=Eva]y[/font], we have 17 left.

If we remove rare letters such as v, x and [font=Eva]z[/font], we have 14 left.

If we remove h that does not appear independently, we have 13 left.

Considering that ch, s and [font=Eva]Sh[/font] are probably different letters, we have 14.

Considering that cFh, cPh, cKh, and [font=Eva]cTh[/font] may be extra letters, we have 18.

According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Mandarin of 14th century had 24 consonants:
  • 3 consonants appearing at both beginning and end of a syllable: m, n, ŋ
  • 17 consonants appearing only at the beginning of a syllable: p, pʰ, f, v, t, tʰ, l, k, kʰ, x, t͡ʃ, t͡ʃʰ, ʃ, ʒ, t͡s, t͡sʰ, s
  • 4 allophones appearing only at the beginning of a syllable: ʈ͡ʂ, ʈ͡ʂʰ, ʂ, ʐ
Even if we ignore 4 allophones, we still have 20 consonants to record. It won’t be that hard for 18 letters, because digraphs can be used.

However, if I’m remembering correctly, there are posts about gallow characters being less frequent in normal lines than in first lines. So I wonder if gallow letters and benched letters are just another form variant of other letters. If we have 18 letters for consonant, it would be fine to record Chinese. But, if we have to remove 8 gallows and have only 10 letters for consonant, it would be very insufficient to record Chinese phonology.

These two things are currently preventing me from accepting Chinese as the underlying language. In my opinion, if we want to say the underlying language is Chinese, we have to find good explanations for these two things.
Thank you, Chen Zhe!
I find your observations well thought and useful. While some of the problems in your second post (number of characters) might be explained by defectiveness of the script or (as you say) the presence of several digraphs, your observations about Voynichese prefixes seem to point to a language where prefixes play a prominent role.

It seems to me that Chinese works rather well in an aspect I am particularly interested in: reduplication.
In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I find 27 instances of exact reduplication:
 guāiguāi 
 tiāntiān 
 děngděng 
 cuìcuì 
 tiāntiān 
 gūlū gūlū,
 bǎ bǎ 
 báibái 
 bèngbèng 
 xiǎoxiǎo 
 jǐnjǐn 
 jiànjiàn 
 tiáotiáo 
 yīngyīng 
 tōutōu 
 chángcháng 
 wāwā 
 mànmàn 
 xìxì 
 tōutōu 
 qiāoqiāo 
 shēnshēn 
 zǒuzhe zǒuzhe,
 mànmàn 
 hǎohǎo 
 dìdì 
 yuǎnyuǎn 

The frequency of exact reduplication appears perfectly compatible with what is observed in the Voynch ms.
Is this pinyin text something you can easily read and understand? If so, could you please explain the meaning of some of these occurrences of reduplication?
Nicely summarised, Chen Zhe. In other words, the problems with Chinese are much the same as with other languages.
Disappointing, not unexpected, but at last we know.
Yes, but Marco, the bigger problem is not exact reduplication, but rather the pseudo reduplication that happens on almost every single line of the VMS.
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